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Author Topic: In the world, but not of the world?  (Read 3520 times)

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excellenttrader

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In the world, but not of the world?
« on: April 28, 2008, 04:00:38 PM »

Hey gang,

Anybody else heard of the saying that, "We are to be in the world, but not of the world?"  That phrase has been going through my mind a bit lately.  I thought it was a paraphrase of a bible verse, but when I did a search for it, I couldn't find it.  Then I did a search here in the forum and didn't find anything that fit either.

I was hoping that if it is a part of a bible verse, someone could point me to it.  Also, if Ray has addressed it somewhere already and someone knows where he talked about it I'd appreciate it if you could show me.

Finally, what do you guys feel it really means to not be of the world in this phrase? 

When I've heard it used, typically it seems a justification for not being in the military or for not getting involved with politics.  With all of the political stuff in the news lately I see lots of Christian friends getting on the bandwagon and sending me emails about whatever candidate they are supporting or bashing.  So, this has gotten me to wondering if we should or shouldn't be involved in politics and if there are other things we also shouldn't be involved in.  For example, although there are many great organizations and causes, what's the difference between being in a...pro life group or environmental group or animal rights or whatever versus a political group?  Or is there a difference at all with regards to being in the world?  Not sure that you can draw a specific line in the sand and say this group is okay but that one isn't as far this topic goes, but I was hoping to get more of an idea from others so I can make sure that my perspective on it is scripturally accurate. 

And while I'm at it, I got to thinking that maybe this statement, if looked at from more of a spiritual view, is really talking about us focusing on being spiritual in our lives and not carnal...or avoiding the lust of the eyes, flesh and pride of life which is what the world is about.

Thanks for the help,

Mike
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 04:26:04 PM »

Hi Mike

I too had a similar question to the one you present here in the Forum. Here is the reply!

The "world" represents two entities in Scripture:  [1] The Church, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great, and [2] The social system of the the nations in general.
 
Jesus referred to both in John's Gospel account:
 
"...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the WORLD"  (John 16:33).  What "world?"  Did He overcome China?  Japan?  Indolnesia?  No, Jesus overcame the world of Judaism--"He came unto His own [the Jews] but they received Him NOT," and hence He had to overcome them all the days of his earthly ministry.
 
But in John 17:24  read, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the WORLD" is speaking of the whole "kosmos"--the whole system of world governments.
 
Jesus prayed for NEITHER of these two "worlds," as their destiny is solidly fixed by God's divine providence, and therefore prayer would be of no value. Jesus does not pray that His Father's Prophecies should NOT come to pass, and neither do God's Elect pray such nonsense as is parroted daily over the air waves "pray for world peace."  Nonsense. There will be no world peace--God has already decreed it.
God be with you,
Ray


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1348.0.html


Peace to you
Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 04:29:57 PM by Arcturus »
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Matt

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 09:16:52 PM »

Out of the "world" and in to "Christianity", or if you prefer,
out of the "frying pan" and in to the "fire" ;D
Matt
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 11:44:00 PM »

I was asked yesterday if I was Jewish. I said no. Then I was asked if I was a Christian. I said no, that I am neither Jewish nor Christian but am a Bible believer! They understood! They caught the meaning! It was pleasant too.

OH I should say that the fact that I am studying the original texts and not relying on TRANSLATIONS or opinons, had already been explained to them! ;)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 11:46:25 PM by Arcturus »
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winner08

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2008, 09:01:23 AM »

Great topic: How does one live their life in this world without becoming part of this world we live in? With all that daily life demands of each of us, how do you not become part of this world? This verse keeps coming to my mind. Render onto Ceasers what is Ceasers and render onto Gods what is Gods. If this was good enough for Jesus it"s good enough for me (Just my personal opinion).

                                           Darren
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mharrell08

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2008, 10:07:06 AM »

Great point Darren
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hillsbororiver

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2008, 11:47:04 AM »

Hi Everyone,

Here are a few (of many) verses to consider and meditate on in regard to this seeming paradox, living and existing in this world, a strange land.......


Rom 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
 
Tit 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
 
Jam 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 
2Pe 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
 
1Jo 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
 
1Jo 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
 
1Jo 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

This portion from 1Peter Chapter 2 might also help clarify living in but not living like the world.

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
 
1Pe 2:10  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
 
1Pe 2:11  Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
 
1Pe 2:12  Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
 
1Pe 2:13  Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
 
1Pe 2:14  Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
 
1Pe 2:15  For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

Peace,

Joe



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Roy Monis

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2008, 12:59:39 PM »

Hi! Darren

That was just great. Keep it nice and simple, I like it.

God bless

Love in Christ Jesus.
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excellenttrader

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2008, 05:52:36 PM »

Hey Matt--LOL, I love the frying pan comparison:)  I had to read it a couple of times until it sank in, and then I busted out laughing.

Arcturus--You make an interesting point about not claiming to be a Christian.  I can see how that would actually mislead most people since they would sterotype you as a member of mystery babylon.  I'm going to have to rethink my response now.

It seems like the more I think about this and reread these verses that even being involved with organizations with "good agendas," would often still be wrong for me to be a part of.  If nothing else, my motivation may often times really be motivated by pride of life. 

Things that make you go, "Hmmm."

Mike

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Akira329

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2008, 09:09:15 PM »

Thanks Joe for those verses!!
When I read these verses all I can think about is all the things I have to separate myself from.
All my wants and desires, my goals, my dreams, my aspirations and I sit back and think that every thing
I try to accomplish is vain, not worth the time and effort. I would be spending more time seeking my pleasure
than seeking the kingdom.
Then when I'm finally done thinking about it, I think of John the Baptist.
Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And he lived like this:
Mat 3:4  And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Life is so hard, salvation is so hard
Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

hillsbororiver

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2008, 09:41:24 AM »

Thanks Joe for those verses!!
When I read these verses all I can think about is all the things I have to separate myself from.
All my wants and desires, my goals, my dreams, my aspirations and I sit back and think that every thing
I try to accomplish is vain, not worth the time and effort. I would be spending more time seeking my pleasure
than seeking the kingdom.
Then when I'm finally done thinking about it, I think of John the Baptist.
Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And he lived like this:
Mat 3:4  And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Life is so hard, salvation is so hard
Antaiwan

Yes it is Antaiwan,

The following is one of my favorite bits from Ray, it should really speak to all of us, especially through the trials and tribulations, when we are having that wilderness experience;
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

THE BELIEVERíS JUDGMENT BY FIRE

Well, yes, it does appear that there is a judgment on the house of God, but certainly not a judgment by FIRE, is there? Doesnít God judge non-believers with fire, but not believers? This only sounds strange to you if you have never been taught the Scriptures.

"Beloved, think it NOT STRANGE concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some STRANGE thing happened unto you" (I Pet. 4:12).

Peter makes it sound as though going through fiery trails is the norm rather than the exception. The New Testament is filled with the fiery trials of the Saints.

Now I hope that none will be offended at my next few statements, but if so, so be it. Unless God Almighty through the purging power of His FIERY SPIRIT, is BURNING OUT the lusts and passions and vanity and haughtiness and greed and self-righteousness and laziness and weakness and hypocrisy and wickedness and pride and materialism and cynicism and depravity and carnality in your life, then Jesus Christ is not choosing you to reign with Him as the Sons of God in the Kingdom of God to bring all Heaven and Earth to repentance and salvation!

And I will tell you on the authority of Jesus Christ and all the Holy Scriptures, that anyone who teaches and takes delight in thinking that God would ever torture anyone for all eternity, will NEVER BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITH SUCH AN ATTITUDE!

Such damnable character flaws of the mind and spirit are going to be burned out of us all! God will either BURN OUT these filthy impurities from our hearts and minds NOW, or He will BURN THEM OUT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, but either way, make no mistake about it, THESE THINGS ARE COMING OUT!!!

JOHN THE BAPTIST: John the Baptist said that Jesus would be baptizing repentant believers with fire.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto REPENTANCE: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND WITH FIRE" (Matt. 3:11).

JESUS CHRIST:

"For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).

APOSTLE PETER:

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it [your faith] be TRIED IN THE FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).

APOSTLE PAUL:

"Every manís work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every manís work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).

With such noble and august witnesses, does anyone deny that the repentant, converted, dedicated, believing Christian will escape being "revealed," tried," "salted," and "baptized" by FIRE? These Scriptures are undeniable! Whatever this "fire" is, it is going to be used ON EVERYONE. These four Scriptures have the believer specifically in view, but it says and includes "EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MANíS WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."

And there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE when it comes to the non-believers:

"And I saw a great white throne ... And I saw the dead...and the dead were JUDGED ... according to their WORKS ... and they were judged EVERY MAN according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:11-13).

And are these non-believers judged differently from believers who are "revealed, tried, salted and baptized IN FIRE?" Just HOW are these non-believers judged in the book of Revelation? How are the "...fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars..." JUDGED? Answer: "... In the lake WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE ..." (Rev. 21:8)!

Is this "fire" in the book of Revelation DIFFERENT from the fire that tries the works of believers in the book of I Corinthians? NO. The word "fire" used in the four examples above concerning believers, is the SAME word "fire" used in the book of Revelation concerning non-believers:

STRONGís Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):

(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;

(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;

(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;

(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;

(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."

End of quotation, (All CAPS emphasis are mine).

I was quite amazed to see this broadened definition in Strongís Concordance. In my Strongís Exhaustive Concordance that I purchased over forty years ago, it has but one line after the Greek word pur. It states that pur is "fire" either (literal or figurative), fiery, lightning. Thatís it. So when I purchased the NEW Strongís Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible last week, I was pleasantly surprised to see the expanded definitions, especially with reference to this word "pur" -- FIRE. I learned the use of the word "fire" in Scripture the hard way -- I had to research.

We could easily spend twenty pages just commenting on the examples used in this expanded version of Strongís. I wonít do that, but letís take a brief look at a few enlightening items: First, we learn that this word can be, and is, used "figuratively." And in fact, the first five examples given in Strongís ARE examples of figurative usage of the word fire. And of the 500+ times the word 'fire' is used in the Bible, hundreds of times the word 'fire' is used in a figurative or symbolic sense.

I call your attention to the statement in Strongís (1b) "In Rev. 3:18 it [fire] is SYMBOLIC, of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD"! (CAPS emphasis mine).

I just love it when Christian Scholars will occasionally just absolutely "nail" a Scriptural Truth. Notice this beautiful and profound Scriptural Truth: The symbolic fire of Rev. 3:18 tries the faith of the saints, and PRODUCES what will GLORIFY THE LORD! ASTOUNDING!

Carefully note that it is not the "believer" who "produces" these glorious things, but it is the "SYMBOLIC FIRE" that produces them. And just Who is this "symbolic fire?" It is, of course, GOD -- "For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)!

Therefore it is GOD who "PRODUCES" qualities in the saints that will GLORIFY HIMSELF! Godís consuming SPIRITUAL fire (remember that "GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24) does the "producing," not the saint,

"For HIS ACHIEVEMENT are we, being created in Christ Jesus ..." (Eph. 2:10).

"Now what have you which you did not OBTAIN? Now if you OBTAINED it also [from GOD] why are you boasting as though [you are] not obtaining [it from God]?" (I Cor. 4:7 Concordant Literal New Testament).

"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).

"The One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will" (Eph. 1:11).

Peace,

Joe




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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2008, 05:03:08 PM »

Hey excellenttrader

I am glad you are going to have to re think your responce especially in the light that we are called to Come Out of Her My People. Church is "Called out ones" after all! :D

You are the temple of God. I like also what Ray says. He says that every time he opens his Bible he is at Church.

It is good to be out of that certain house that is divided 3000 ways against itself by the 3000 different denominations and sects that have divided, grossly disfigured beyond all recognition by assult and scourging and putting to death of the precious body of Christ. It is good to come out. God knows it is good or He certainly would not have called "Come out of Her My People." now would He :D ;D

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)
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excellenttrader

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 06:00:01 PM »

Unless God Almighty through the purging power of His FIERY SPIRIT, is BURNING OUT the lusts and passions and vanity and haughtiness and greed and self-righteousness and laziness and weakness and hypocrisy and wickedness and pride and materialism and cynicism and depravity and carnality in your life, then Jesus Christ is not choosing you to reign with Him as the Sons of God in the Kingdom of God to bring all Heaven and Earth to repentance and salvation!


Ouch!

Thanks Joe.  I've read this section before, but its hitting home more this time around.  I have certainly gone through my share of challenges over the last couple of years.  Perhaps God is choosing me to reign with Him.  Its a certainty that I have a long way to go if that's the case (Which sounds like I'm in for more "burning out" then.  Ouch again.). 

There's still so much to learn and the challenge has been for me to really look at my life and the things happening in it and see what's really carnal and what's spiritual.

I think that brings me over to Arc's points since for so much of my life, much of what I thought of as spiritual was all church stuff that I'm now trying to get away from.  Its one thing to just not go to church anymore.  But its a whole different ballgame to:
look at my actions
evaluate my motivations behind them
really see them for what they are
admit my carnality when appropriate
let it go
and then finally refocus on and adhere to the spiritual.

I'm second guessing everything about my life nowadays.  Which actually is a good thing I think and something I've enjoyed much of the time.  But it sure is frustrating at times too.

Mike

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ciy

  • Guest
Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 06:46:09 PM »

Mike
Here are a couple of verses out of Deuteronomy 28 that backs up what you are pointing out from Ray's writing.

 20The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

   21The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.

God is a consuming fire.
CIY

« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 07:16:03 PM by ciy »
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ellie77

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2008, 04:19:20 AM »

Hey everyone,Just like to say what an interesting thread this is. It is amazing to me to contemplate Jesus overcoming the world.Then to think how we are so often struggling to find a place in all our worldly doings.These posts confirm,uplift , instruct  and I am so grateful for this forum and all of you.Peace ...Ellie
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Roy Monis

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Re: In the world, but not of the world?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2008, 07:55:53 AM »

Unless God Almighty through the purging power of His FIERY SPIRIT, is BURNING OUT the lusts and passions and vanity and haughtiness and greed and self-righteousness and laziness and weakness and hypocrisy and wickedness and pride and materialism and cynicism and depravity and carnality in your life, then Jesus Christ is not choosing you to reign with Him as the Sons of God in the Kingdom of God to bring all Heaven and Earth to repentance and salvation!


Ouch!

Thanks Joe.  I've read this section before, but its hitting home more this time around.  I have certainly gone through my share of challenges over the last couple of years.  Perhaps God is choosing me to reign with Him.  Its a certainty that I have a long way to go if that's the case (Which sounds like I'm in for more "burning out" then.  Ouch again.). 

There's still so much to learn and the challenge has been for me to really look at my life and the things happening in it and see what's really carnal and what's spiritual.

I think that brings me over to Arc's points since for so much of my life, much of what I thought of as spiritual was all church stuff that I'm now trying to get away from.  Its one thing to just not go to church anymore.  But its a whole different ballgame to:
look at my actions
evaluate my motivations behind them
really see them for what they are
admit my carnality when appropriate
let it go
and then finally refocus on and adhere to the spiritual.

I'm second guessing everything about my life nowadays.  Which actually is a good thing I think and something I've enjoyed much of the time.  But it sure is frustrating at times too.

Mike



Dear Mike.

There is absolutely nothing you, I or anyone else can do of ourselves to eliminate the character flaws that remain. God has spoken in connection with each one of us and His words have been recorded, sealed and stored. All we can do is pray that His fiery purging will be as merciful as possible while in this world, because they will certainly be removed when they come up in judgment of His House.

It will most certainly be ouch! both here and there, but the result will be a glorious reward. We must keep the latter in mind and leave the former to His abundant mercies.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.
 
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