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Author Topic: The Lord's Prayer  (Read 2699 times)

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Roy Monis

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The Lord's Prayer
« on: May 04, 2008, 09:26:50 AM »

Hi! Everyone and God bless you all.

Just a passing thought. I was reading Ray's inspired teaching on the soul searching last words of Jesus Christ before He finally gave up the Spirit.

Could Jesus' dying prayer for all humanity also carry another message to His chosen children in the form of an example and reminder of His earlier teaching on "How to pray"? The teaching being based on two very important verses;

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." (Matt.6:14,15).

Not that He Personally had anything to be forgiven for by His Father but purely as a reminder and example for us.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.
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winner08

  • Guest
Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2008, 05:09:39 PM »

For sure, Jesus also gave us several other comands as to how we should live life with our fellow man. which He also taught by example.
                                 

                                                    Darren
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ericsteven

  • Guest
Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2008, 05:20:36 PM »

Hi Roy,

There is actually some question as to whether this verse is truly scriptural.  It is on Professor Tischendorf’s list of spurious passages according to his notes on the early Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts.  This list can be found on the bibletruths.com forum at this link:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html

There is evidence within scripture that repentance must come first before forgiveness can or should be given.

2 Chronicles 7:14     If My people, which are called by My Name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear
                            from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1 John 1:9              If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Psalm 86:5              For Thou, LORD, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon Thee.

Jeremiah 36:3         It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may
                           forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Also in Jeremiah 18, we have Jeremiah asking God not to forgive Israel for the evil that they have done.

Jeremiah 18:23       Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay [me]: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their
                           sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal [thus] with them in the time of thine anger.

I doubt this is a statement usually attributed as a prophecy of our Savior [and I’m not saying it absolutely is], but God definitely knew all the counsel of the Pharisees and Romans to slay Christ.  And it wasn’t as if Jeremiah here is asking something contrary to how God acts, because we read in the very next chapter of all the evil that He brings upon His people for disobeying Him. 

Jeremiah 19:3         …Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

And there could be an argument made that the physical Jewish people as a whole to this day have experienced nothing but God’s anger ever since the death of our Lord, i.e. the destruction of Jerusalem, the many Jewish holocausts throughout the ages culminating in the attempted Jewish genocide by the Nazis, etc…

So the very words, 'Forgive them for they know not what they do' could be seen as in direct contradiction to the sum of scripture.

Here is what one commentator I’ve read had to say regarding Luke 23:34:

Luke 23:34 -- Some copyist added these words with the evident thought of revealing the Master's benevolence toward his enemies, but actually they are not in harmony with the known facts. Whatever Jesus requested of the Heavenly Father would be granted. But those who crucified him were not forgiven. It was a national sin for which they have suffered severely.

I could be completely wrong, [and I am more often than not :-\] but if nothing else, further study is needed on this subject.  We are constantly learning and growing, and perhaps Ray will provide further insight into this in an upcoming paper or conference. 

Hope this at least gives you something to think about and perhaps spur you on to more studying of His Word.

God bless,

Eric
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2008, 05:44:40 PM »

Beautiful Scriptures Eric!

I think what Jesus means is "Get over everyone else's sins! "  Or "Rise above everyone else's imperfections and just get past looking at everyone else's flaws. "  He did say "Turn the other cheek."  I think He meant look at things from another side not always your side. See things in perspective. You too are flawed, weak, fail and liable to temptations.

Ref to the transcript and audio by Ray on REPENTENCE gives exceptional insights to this statement made by Jesus to cast the beam out of your eye made to His very own Disciples! :o

I personally love what Jesus says here. John 20 : 23 Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them;  UNTO THEM, and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained. (NO UNTO THEM for sins retained! So who would be the retainer? Huh? Who would be the vessel that retains the sins but who so ever RETAINS THEM! )  Vessel of honour and Mercy and Pardon and Peace and vessels of dishonor , wrath, and vengeance and etc etc....

Just how I see it...

Peace to you

Arc.
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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 08:19:51 AM »

Hi! Eric

Thanks for your information, I was quite unaware of that list. The NASV, which is the more updated and accurate of the two translations also includes what is reckoned by Professor Tischendorf’s list to be spurious passages.

If we are to believe Professor Tischendorf’s list of spurious passages, then this would mean that Ray is wrong to term this passage as the true Lord's Prayer for the forgiveness of the whole world's sins if the words weren't actually uttered?

I don't understand Arcturus' reference to repentance first, this was unconditional forgiveness because no one present showed the slightest bit of remorse other than those closest to Him. Darren has got the gist of what I'm on about. I asked if this was intended as a reminder and example which is conditional on repentance first by the offending party, but equally binding on the offended party toforgive or they would not be forgiven by the Father.

I simply love this passage and would certainly go along with Ray and not Professor Tischendorf’s. In the eyes of the Lord human wisdom is but foolishness and it won't be the first time that these human wise men will be proved wrong.

Thank you Eric and God bless you brother.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 11:01:32 AM »


Hi Roy,

Quote
If we are to believe Professor Tischendorf’s list of spurious passages, then this would mean that Ray is wrong to term this passage as the true Lord's Prayer for the forgiveness of the whole world's sins if the words weren't actually uttered?

At the 2007 Conference in Mobile Ray mentions this list of Tisendorf’s, I don't believe he was aware of it until then.  Here is an excerpt from the transcript.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.15.html -------

I’m not going to say that this list is etched in stone.  Here’s what this is:  On authority of Professor C. Tisendorf’s notes on the reading of the two oldest Greek manuscripts, the Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209.  The words listed, found in our common King James Version are not found in the oldest manuscripts.
Now 75% of those listed are not of that much consequence.  Quite frankly they are just a simple word, like should we say ‘sin’ or should it be  ‘faults.’  You know your faults or your sins or something like that.  But some are really paramount and one or two of them really threw me.  Because I didn’t see this particular list until I did this study. 
---------------------------------------------------------------

I think that forgiveness is a key element we must have, if we are to enter the kingdom.  We can see where Jesus taught about forgiveness in the parable of the 'Unforgiving Servant.'

Mat 18:21-35 
Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"  Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 
Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.  And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.  But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 
The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, "Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'  Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.  "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, "Pay me what you owe!'  So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'  And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 
So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.  Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.  Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'  And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. v. 35  "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

We can see in this parable that our Father has forgiven each of us so much, that we also should be patience and forgiving of one another also.  As the parable shows that if we do not have real forgiveness in our hearts, we shall go to the Lake of Fire;  v. 33-34  "Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?  And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 01:21:57 PM »

Hi! Kathy.

I agree with everything you have said and the Scriptures you have quoted confirm that without any shadow of doubt. But my post is looking at the situation from two entirely different perspectives. One from Jesus' perspective and the other from my worldly perspective.

From Jesus' perspective, He was sinless so He had nothing to repent for, which is the prerequisite for forgiveness. So His forgiveness was unconditional because none of those who had murdered Him showed any sign of remorse (repentance).

Now looking at it from my worldly perspective, the situation changes completely. We are all acknowledged sinners and, as such, for me to be forgiven becomes conditional on my repentance as a prerequisite for forgiveness by my brother. But after I have acknowledged my sin, apologized and asked for forgiveness the onus shifts on to the brother who has been offended. If he doesn't forgive then the Father in heaven won't forgive him and the offending brother, that's me, is absolved.

This is what that Scripture is saying to me regardless of whether Professor C. Tisendorf’s list is accurate or not, that is immaterial.

Is this explanation of what I'm trying to say any clearer? All I'm doing is trying to link the Lord's Prayer with His teaching on the subject. I am reading His forgiveness as a reminder and example to us as to how we should interact with our fellow brothers and sisters.

God bless and let's avoid the gator tail or sheep head soup.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.

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ciy

  • Guest
Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 05:02:20 PM »

Roy

This was a verse that always bothered me when I was a shooting star in Bablyon.  Everybody was encouraging me and trying to get me involved in everything and I got involved in it all.  But there were some verses like this one that would come whizzing by me and I would think that does not go along with our doctrine that "once saved always saved".  Or just say this 11 second prayer and you are saved. 

No, this verse says that if I do not forgive all then God will not forgive me.  I knew plenty of "good christians" that did not forgive. 

Now I see this as yes we are all forgiven, but until we repent we do not receive the gift of salvation.  If I am chosen then I must be faithful until the end in order to be saved in this age.  If I fall back and have someone that I "hold ought" against then I will not have forgiven all.  I will not receive salvation in this age.  Still I am forgiven.  It is just that I will forgive all in this age or I will have to have it all burned out of me in the LOF before I find forgiveness in my heart for all.

These verses are all to reveal the chosen in this age.  Everybody will do all that is in here at some point in time or during some age.  This is speaking of this age.

I hope I am communicating what I am trying to say.
CIY
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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 10:28:43 AM »

Beautiful Scriptures Eric!

I think what Jesus means is "Get over everyone else's sins! "  Or "Rise above everyone else's imperfections and just get past looking at everyone else's flaws. "  He did say "Turn the other cheek."  I think He meant look at things from another side not always your side. See things in perspective. You too are flawed, weak, fail and liable to temptations.

Ref to the transcript and audio by Ray on REPENTENCE gives exceptional insights to this statement made by Jesus to cast the beam out of your eye made to His very own Disciples! :o

I personally love what Jesus says here. John 20 : 23 Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them;  UNTO THEM, and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained. (NO UNTO THEM for sins retained! So who would be the retainer? Huh? Who would be the vessel that retains the sins but who so ever RETAINS THEM! )  Vessel of honour and Mercy and Pardon and Peace and vessels of dishonor , wrath, and vengeance and etc etc....

Just how I see it...

Peace to you

Arc.

Hi! To all of you and God bless you.

In answer to Huh! above, I believe that the meaning of retained in; “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” (Jn.20:23). The retained refers to the vessel of dishonour, wrath, vengeance etc.etc.etc., that is, the vessel that withholds forgiveness. (THERE IS NO HAS BEEN FORGIVEN THEM HERE.)

In like manner; “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." (Matt.6:14,15). "If you do not forgive.." this is the vessel of wrath, dishonour, vengeance etc. etc. etc. Here it is a lot clearer the vessel of dishonour WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN for their transgressions. And we all have an abundance of those however righteous or learned we may think we are.

There is no partiality with God so this applies to everyone from the first to believe, Peter (who alone holds the keys and no one else) down to Paul who was at one time the worst of sinners. To the believer it is one of the keys to His kingdom, to the sinner it is a key to a less severe judgment. This is what I believe and it is only my opinion until proved wrong

Thank you Kath, Eric and CTY for your very welcome help. I fully agree with everything that all three of you are saying, and Kath I was not aware of Ray's conference notes which you so kindly provided. I have printed out all 85 pages of it and will be giving them my full attention as I progress in my walk with Christ. Thank you.

God bless you and I hope you're not serving up Cajun gator tail for supper.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.
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