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Author Topic: The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool  (Read 11996 times)

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Dennis Vogel

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The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« on: March 18, 2006, 07:04:50 PM »

Boy, this guy is like the Energizer Bunny--put a battery in him and he doesn't quit. I read down to the quote I will repeat at the bottom of this incredible CROCK of unscriptural nonsense.......




“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts“

Hello Ray.

I recently came across your web-site by accident. As I read some of your articles and the answers you wrote back in response to some of the folks who had written you, there was no doubt what I was reading on your web-site was full of heresies, half-truths, distortion and a misrepresentation of the Word of God. As I analyzed what you have written, I was not surprised. There is nothing new in your words or ideals of what I saw in the articles you and others have written . There are others who have come before you who have made the same misconceived statements and claims pertaining to the fallacies and untruths of which you claim is the Word of God. Your lack of spiritual understanding of God’s Holy word is evident by your misleading notions and erroneous position. You misinform your readers by diagnosing and dissecting words to make them fit to your erroneous belief and ideals concerning salvation. Salvation is not granted through some trial of fire. I’m not going to do as you have done by trying to correct each word by explaining its true definition and meaning. But I will point out some of your discrepancies and explain it in simple way. Debating with you over the meaning of a word and what is the true meaning in order to disseminate your view is immaterial. Your basis for doing so is to discriminate against the true. The fallacy and lie of your teaching of salvation is of Satan himself and the ideal that God somehow will eventually in His eternal love forgive all mankind and save the whole world is not scriptural, but a manmade point of view.

The Lord God has seven attributes and each of His attributes is in complete harmony and balance with the other. For instance, God’s tremendous love will never take precedence over His righteousness. God’s love is equal to His righteousness. One of God’s attributes cannot and will not dominate the other. Although God’s love is immeasurable, so also is His righteousness. When God’s righteousness is violated by the sin of man, God’s judgment demands retribution, and His love will never outweigh His judgment, nor will His judgment outweigh His love. Gods love demands judgment and righteousness. If God would at some later date forgive man and forgive and forget of all his sins, and the lost man would not have to pay for his sins for eternity, and then God’s love would outweigh His judgment. That would be impossible, for each of God’s attributes are in complete and total harmony with each other, and one attribute cannot not and will not overcome or cancel out the other. The fallacy that God will some how forgive all mankind at some later date has been around for a long time, and Satan is the perpetrator of this lie. This is where you have a difficult time with understanding salvation, and eternity, because you do not fully understand God or His Word. You undermine God by limiting His righteousness, and you cannot comprehend the framework of His love. You make issues over words that do not make sense. You take words out of content and you add to and subtract meanings from a definition in order support your misunderstanding of the Word of God.

You made a statement several times saying; how could anyone believe that all the billions upon billions of men and women and children are going to spend eternity in hell and fire where their eyes will melt out of their sockets. Well first of all, the fire will be eternal, and just as the burning bush which Moses saw in the burning bush but did not consume the bush, neither will the fires of hell consume the people. Neither will peoples eyes melt out of their sockets, but will burn in a eternal fire which will be their eternal punishment for the sin of rejecting the true living God. Also children won’t be in hell, for children must become of age of accountability and responsibility of understanding. The same is true of all people. We are held accountable for our own personal decisions. As for your theory on free will, I won’t go into details at this time, but it is just as muddy and erroneous as the rest of your concoctions. The majority of the people born in this world, 2/3’s of the children never reach the age of 12 because of hunger, disease, and different ailments and disorders of this world which take away the precious lives of these little children. This is not true in the U.S. because we have better health environment for our children, but for the history of the rest of the world, this has always been the case.

I also read where you made a statement that it did not matter whether Mary was a virgin or not. This one issue above all the others I have read about you tells me that you truly are ignorant of the Spiritual position of the Bible. The virgin birth is one of the crucial issues in the whole Bible of the revelations of Jesus Christ, the Man, yet God who came to earth to visit us. Ray, it seems that you have missed the most important issue of the New Testament and as well as the Old Testament. If Jesus Christ of Nazareth had not been born of a virgin, then He is nothing more then a man like you and me.

Even though Jesus was born of the flesh of a woman, He was not flesh of man, for He had no earthly father. He is flesh and bone as you and I because He had an earthly mother. But there was something about Him that made Him different from the rest of mankind. Every human being ever born on this earth is a direct descendant of Adam, except Jesus. We all carry in our veins the same blood as Adam, but Jesus did not. Every human ever born receives the blood from their father, and we can all trace our blood line all the way back to our first father, Adam, but as far as bloodline goes, this is not the case with Jesus. Jesus is only a descendant of Adam through the flesh and bone of Mary, but there is no bloodline from Jesus to Adam. Each and every one of us has the blood of our father, and our fathers father all the way back to Adam. We all have the same contaminated blood of Adam pumping through our veins, yet Jesus is the exception. You see Ray, before Adam took of the forbidden fruit in the garden, he would have lived forever, for his blood was pure and wholesome. God had “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life:? into Adam and that breath of life was the Blood of God, (“For the life of the flesh is in the blood?) “ but when Adam took of the forbidden fruit and ate it, something happened to Adam, and the Lord said that he would die the day that he eats of that tree. When Adam took that fruit, his blood became polluted with sin. He did not die immediately, but death was now in his body. Death not life was now in his blood and therefore the aging process started in his blood, which would eventually would cause his death. So now every person ever born has this contaminate blood of Adam which gives us our life, pumping through our veins until one day we too will die. The death sentence given to all mankind is in the blood and was caused by the original sin in the garden. But Jesus was not born of man, but of woman. He was miraculously conceived in a virgin, Mary, conceived of the Holy Spirit in her womb. Therefore since the blood of Adam did not contaminate His blood, Jesus’ blood is pure, precious, and wholesome, without sin and will live for eternity. The Bible is the bloodiest book ever written. From Genesis to Revelation the book is all about the blood. Redemption for mans sins is in the blood. NO BLOOD, NO REMISSION OF SINS. Not some concoction of some redemption in a fire with some kind of cleaning agent like brimstone or purging of by fire!! RAY, it is all about the BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST . THE BLOOD RAY, THE BLOOD, NOTHING ELSE!!! NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!!

One thing you need to know is when a baby is in the mother’s womb, the child is in a sac of water, called the placenta. In this sac of water the mother exchanges all the food, nutrients and nourishments, and removes all the waste from the baby, but a miraculous thing happens in the placenta is that the baby’s blood never intermixes or exchanges with the mother’s blood while the baby is in this sac called the placenta. This is no mystery; it is documented in most nurse training manuals. This exchange of food and removal of waste is done in the placenta, therefore the mothers and baby’s blood never mixes. Since everyone receives his blood from the father (Adam), the same is true with Jesus. Jesus received His blood from His father, therefore His blood is pure, wholesome, Holy, and without sin. That is why the Bible says; we are born into sin, because we are of the same blood of Adam. Adam sin in the garden and caused his blood to be contaminated or poisoned. So the question is, is the virgin birth of Mary important? You bet it is! Is the Blood of Jesus Christ the only pure, sanctified, Holy Blood in the world for the taking away the sins of mankind? You bet! You and I were born into sin because of our blood is of Adam, but Jesus was the only man ever born without sin, because He had the Blood of His Father. Can man be purged or cleaned of his sins in a fiery hell. NO WAY POSSIBLE! There is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood! There is no other way under the sun in which man can be forgiven for his sins. Ray listen carefully to the Words of God, it is a very strong warning; I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So you see Ray, most everything you write about contradicts the very word of God. You try to make salvation for everyone even for those who have died and were sent to hell to suffer for their sins of rejecting Gods plan for salvation. You teach that they will be redeemed and saved even though as by the fire, but you are wrong, for you teach another salvation not taught by Jesus. It goes against every teaching of the Old and New Testament. Daniel and his companions were put into the fiery furnace and they were miraculously saved, ( Daniel and his companions represent Israel and the trials on this earth) but the men who put Daniel and his companions into the furnace also fell into the fire, and they did not survive. You never hear a thing about them afterwards. The Lord does not say at some later date that God forgave them and they went to heaven. No Ray, they were never heard of again. They were lost forever, they were not redeemed after they were cleansed by the fiery furnace, they did not come back in some part of the Scriptures and say, “Here we are, we paid for our sins!? Ray, you are creating another gospel, and the Lord Jesus warns us against people like you. You do not know the first thing about the Atoning Blood of Jesus. You do not understand the redemption of the Blood on Calvary. You don’t comprehend the seven attributes of God and how they are in perfect harmony and balance. You haven’t understood that the most terrible insult and evil man can do to his Creator, is to completely reject the most wonderful, precious and perfect gift God has given to mankind, His life and blood in order to redeem man from a eternal hell fire. You are so in tune to your own ability to look up words in the Bible and give definitions, that you do not know the true God of the Bible, the Lamb of God, the Sacrificial Lamb of God, the Bright and Morning Star, the Jesus of Calvary who died on the Cross to shed His Blood for you. You talk about another salvation that is foreign to Jesus and the Word of God. You have created a salvation of L. Ray Smith, which is another gospel. Ray you must heed to God’s warning and if you refuse, you must accept the consequences of your stubbornness and pride. You cannot continue with your friends and companions to teach and confuse those who are following your lies, your heresies, which are the works of Satan.

From the very beginning the Devil used enticing words to trick Eve into disobeying God, that somehow she would gain knowledge and become like God. Nimrod, because of his evil ways tried to form his own religion, and therefore God had to confound the world by causing everyone to speak in a different tongue. The tower of Babel is where we get our word babbling which means confusion. ( I know Bab El means the gate to God, but that is why it is call confusion, because Nimrod was confusing the people of the true way to worship God, the same as you are doing Ray, you are creating confusion) And in these last days, before the return of our Lord Jesus, the Devil will once again use words, and vain babblings to bring about confusion in this world, just as you are doing. You think that you are somehow blessed of God and that you have received some revelation of His Word, and therefore you attempt to appeal to the people with your knowledge and opinions. Unfortunately, what you are doing is taking certain words and verses from the scripture and misalign them, using religious babble or jargon and attach your own meaning to those words to persuade and influence others that you have some special revelation or knowledge from God. Christ continually rebuked the Pharisees for the hypocrisy, legalism, and the theological error, even likening them to a “child of hell? (Matt.23: 15). False teachers are referred to as those who “live in error? “These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.? “ But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.? (2 Peter 2:17, 22)

Your false teaching is because of PRIDE, and a lack of Spiritual discernment. This is evident in the way in which you so viciously attack some of the men who are men of God who have witnessed to millions of people to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have led so many lost souls to the Lord. Noticed I said the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not the gospel of L.Ray Smith and his followers. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. The only name under heaven is; Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of the Living God.

You are spreading false doctrines and teachings and your interpretation of the scriptures is a result of your carnal thinking and reasoning. You constantly try to reinforce those who are reading your web-site that you are gifted and able to understand the scriptures, yet you misinterpret the scriptures in order to prove your own personal viewpoint. II Timothy 4:3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. Ray, you seem to be a very bright person, but spiritually you are very confused and you are leading others down your dark road of deception. For instance your explanation concerning Lazarus and the rich man, you stated that it is a parable. You stated that it was a parable because the Lord always talk to crowds or multitudes in parables therefore, Lazarus and Abraham and the rich man were made up by Jesus for the purpose of telling a story. So in essence you are saying that Jesus created these stories and the people in the story were not real. If Jesus had fabricated these names for the purpose of giving an illustration, then this would have made Jesus a liar. Jesus did not have to dream up nor invent specific names of people in order to tell His story. There is no rhyme, reason or purpose in that. There is no spiritual reasoning to do so. The reason Jesus used peoples names was because he was speaking of real people, of actual events which took place and the account actually happened. Your second mistake was saying the story was a parable. You stated since Jesus used parables to talk to a multitude of people, therefore He was talking to a multitude when He was given the story of Lazarus. Wrong again. He had finished his talking to the crowd in Luke 16:14 and now was addressing the Pharisees, who were laughing and mocking him. He no longer was talking to the crowd but had changed His focus and His attention toward the Pharisees who were deriding Him, so therefore He began talking to the Pharisees. They were skeptical and making mockery of Jesus concerning the parables He had just taught to the multitude so Jesus change from teaching to the crowd to correcting the Pharisees. The conclusion is Jesus did not speak a parable concerning Lazarus and hell, while addressing the Pharisees but Jesus spoke of a real event, real people and a real place, not as you suppose, created names in order to tell a story. He spoke plainly to the religious hypocrites, to correct their wrongful thoughts and the things they teach.

Your article on brimstone and fire is interesting, but again as is your technique, you only share enough information in order to make a point to support your false teachings. Brimstone is sulfur, but it is volcanic sulfur. As you normally do, you go to a dictionary to find the definition of the word, then you manipulate and distort the definitions or only use the part of the definition to fit your personal convictions. Fumigating a building or a home is not the same as using it on people, but you lead the reader to believe it is for purifying people. (using your imagination to prove a point.) It is only in recent time that sulfur has been used for medical purposes, ( healing not purifying) but there is a manufacturing process in order to make it safe for medical purposes, but fumigating people is hardly what the product is use for. You make light of the definition of sulfur to make it seem as if sulfur is harmless that it won’t harm you, and may even have some beneficial properties, but the Bible gives no indication of this. These ideals come from your imagination, from information you gain from secular books. Because sulfur is tasteless and odorless and it has no dangerous action upon the skin, you give the impression that it is harmless, in fact it may be beneficial. This is true, just as the sulfur is use for many industrial applications, but we are discussing the purpose and meaning of brimstone for the purpose of retribution for rebelling against the Most High God. The true fact is that sulfur or brimstone is always associated with fire in the Bible. Brimstone when heated up to a certain temperature changes color. The color is red. When Brimstone is heated its properties change and form into sulfur dioxide, sulfuric acid or sulfurous acid. Although raw sulfur is tasteless and odorless, sulfur dioxide gas has a very sharp odor and will kill plants and certain wildlife. Sulfuric acid is extremely corrosive, one of the strongest acids known to man. It can burn the skin and irritate the lining of the nose, windpipe, and lungs. In the lake of fires in hell, sulfur will be liquefied producing acid, and obnoxious gases. Of course you did not mentioned any of this to your readers because it would disprove or put doubt in the mind of your readers of your false theory and would make you look foolish. You tried to sway your readers by adding a note that brimstone was a poor conductor of heat and electricity. Again you try to mislead the readers to thinking that brimstone has some other purpose then that of punishment. You try to make people think that others are saying the purpose of brimstone is to make the fire hotter, which is another fallacy. There was no purpose for you to add that to your description, since nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that brimstone is used to make a fire hotter. This is just another one of your techniques to confuse the reader. Brimstone is a natural product of the earth and when heated by fire, usually associated with volcanoes and it has some very unpleasant by-products. It is this reason brimstone is used in the lake of fire. The medicinal products of brimstone has nothing to do with the scriptures in the Bible. Brimstone of the Bible does not in any shape, way or form nor in any spiritual sense is used for the purpose of purging away peoples sins, as you indicate. It is not a medicine nor a cleaning agent. It has the sole purpose of punishment in the Lake of Fire. The red color ( Brimstone will turn from yellow to red when heated to a liquid ) would be a constant reminder of the Blood of Jesus to those in hell as part of their punishment because they had rejected the only thing that can or will cleanse, heal and purify man from sin, and that is the Blood of the Lord Jesus. Not the cleansing power of brimstone and fire as you indicate. Brimstone is always associated with punishment, not healing , or purification purposes which you have tried to mislead the readers into believing. You deliberately leave out information which would reveal the true meaning of how a word is used in the Bible. Your reasoning for doing so is to console your own personal pride that you have somehow received some spiritual wisdom from God of which you feel no one else has concerning the ability to interpret the Word of God , when in fact, you deliberately mislead and misuse the Word of God for your own benefit. You twist, manipulate, and invalidate the Word of God for your own personal gain, to establish your personal beliefs which are without doubt all in error.

Your like a man who wanted to be a conductor of an symphony orchestra. You have all the different musical instruments in front of you ready to play. You are about to perform a grand masterpiece before the audience. You have sixty-six musical instruments, and now you begin. You are going to play one of the most beautiful classical master pieces of all time. You want the audience to see how well you understand the different instruments and how well you know the proper use of each instrument. You want to impress upon the world that everyone else before you has always conducted an orchestra the wrong way up until now. Ray will show the world how to interpret music the proper way. First you call on the violin to play its part. You identify and explain that this instrument is of the string section. You explain in detail everything about the violin and its relation to other instrument in the string section, and how it plays in relationship to other instruments in the orchestra as if this was all new. Next you call upon the another string instrument to play, one instrument at a time until you have identified every piece in the string section until each piece has played. Then next you go to the woodwind section and call upon the piccolo to play, and as before you call on one instrument at a time to play until each one has finished the musical portion it is assigned. You do the same with the brass section, the percussion section and on and on until every single piece in the orchestra has played at lease one time each. Then you take a bow and are happy with yourself because of this marvelous musical masterpiece you have just performed before the audience. You have just explained to the world the proper way to understand an orchestrated master piece. The problem is that you did nothing but pick apart a brilliant piece of work and tried to make the public believe that you have just educated and informed them of how a master piece is really suppose to sound. You had dissected and tore this master piece apart in order to try to make people believe that they had never really understood the real thing until you had conducted the music, as you dissected each piece until all was heard the proper way according to Ray. Because you were able to completely isolate each piece of the orchestra and identify each piece by itself, you were able to show the real meaning of the orchestra, and for the first time hear the music as it was intended. Yet there was no melody, no harmony , no composition, no real music. Nothing! Nothing but a bunch of noise! This is exactly what you are doing to the Bible, but you are so blind with pride and arrogance, that you refuse to see, understand or admit that you are leading a lot of people astray with your rhetoric. If someone were to ask you if a piano was a string instrument or a percussion instrument, you probably would say it was string instrument because it has strings inside of the piano the same as a harp or a cello. Or you might say that the piano is a percussion instrument like the drum because it has little hammers that strike against the strings as one would strike a drum with sticks and gives the piano its distinct sound. This is the same way in which you reason the words in the Bible. But the truth is that the piano is a keyboard instrument. It may have the same appearance as other instruments, and it may sound similar to other instruments, but the piano has its distinct purpose and relationship with the rest of the orchestra and when played with them it helps to produce in harmony a beautiful masterpiece. What you do with the Bible, destroys the theme, purpose and harmony of the Word of God. Just like the orchestra, nothing makes since when its all put together. There is no rhyme nor reason in what you do except you are trying to impress upon the world how intellect and crafty you are with giving a word a description and creating word association, in order to make a personal yet invalid point of view. There is no glory in God, the Lord Jesus or the Holy Spirit. The only glorification observed is in you, L. Ray Smith.

All false teachers share certain characteristics.
He will deny the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

He will deny the inerrancy of the Bible as the inspired and revealed Word of God and as the absolute and final authority in faith and life.

He may lower Jesus to being just a man and mix him with other prophets or teachers.

He will advocate a salvation based upon good works or service, and deny salvation by the shed blood of Christ crucified at Calvary as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins, and that all who trust in Him as their

personal Savior are redeemed and justified on the grounds of His shed blood alone.

The reputation of a false teacher will not be consistent.
a. He will exaggerate his successes.
b. He will minimize his failures.
c. He will say something one time then give various explanations the next time.
d. He makes statements that will only come partly true or part of the time.

. He will appeal to the people's desire for special revelational knowledge.

He will claim that he alone has that special knowledge.

He will use empathy and flattery to draw people to himself.

He will threaten people with the loss of their salvation.

His prophecies may be general in nature.

He will use enticing words to appeal to his audience.

He will demonstrate strong emotions of acceptance and disapproval.

He will use religious babble or jargon and attach his own meanings to the words.

He will have problems in submitting to authority.

He will claim special divine encounters for himself.

He is good at using one Scripture as truth to the exclusion of the rest.

He will use obscure (or little known) Scriptures to validate his teachings.

He will violate principles of Biblical interpretation.
a. He will use historical statements as allegory.
b. He will use allegorical statements as literal.

He will only associate with other people that are like minded with him.

He may reference extra Biblical materials as primary sources for his authority.

He will exhibit pride and stubbornness in his authority.

He will personally be strongly drawn toward the miraculous.

He will generally give an unbalanced view of man, mixing believers and unbelievers together.

He will attempt to isolate his followers from others that have a different view from his.

Some find perverted religion a way to follow what they think is right. The Bible speaks of men "deceiving and being deceived" II Tim. 3:13. That means many people in false religions sincerely think they are right. They have been misled, deluded, and overcome by deceit. Therefore, they follow what they think is the right way, without checking it out by the Bible to see whether it is so. That is the greatest tragedy of all. It means the devil has blinded the eyes of a person so that the truth of God has been shut out by a depraved will. There is no cure for such a deception except a return to the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice

The teaching of these false teachers is destructive to the teachers and to all who follow their teaching and practice. Peter calls the teaching of the false teachers “destructive heresies,? which will “bring swift destruction upon themselves? (verse 1). Their judgment is not “idle? nor is it “asleep? (verse 3).

False teachers can be identified by their morals and their motives. False teachers are driven by their own lusts rather than led by the Holy Spirit. Greed motivates their ministry—not grace (verse 3). They do not seek to give sacrificially to others; they seek to gain from others. They do not seek to edify others but to exploit them (verse 3). Their life is one of sensuality (verse 2), not true spirituality.

False teachers can be recognized by their message. False teachers deny the truth and deal in error. The “way of truth? is maligned, and their words are false (verses 2 and 3). Their doctrines are heresies which are “destructive,? while the truth leads to “life and godliness? (1:3). They claim to teach the Word of God, but they actually twist and distort the Scriptures so their interpretations justify their lifestyle and their lusts (see 3:16).

The false teachers speak of “Jesus,? but it is a “Jesus? of their own making, a “Jesus? with whom sinful men feel comfortable and affirmed. They wish to follow and imitate such a person, but they deny the real Jesus, substituting a more palatable Jesus. So it is that false teachers gain a following by tickling the ears of those who will not have the real “Jesus.?

The reputation of a false prophet will not be consistent.
a. He will exaggerate his successes.
b. He will minimize his failures.
c. He will say something one time then give various explanations the next time.
d. He makes statements that will only come partly true or part of the time.

Ray, I know nothing of you as a person, but your web-site tells me much of what you think, what you believe and how you come about your decisions on important issues of the Bible. I hope that the Holy Spirit convicts you of this evil thing which you are doing, and when you open your eyes to the real Jesus, and repent of all the heresy’s you have printed, I hope you will acknowledge the rhetoric before the Lord and start a new beginning of truth and righteousness by erasing everything on this web-site and you will

start anew, with the truth, and rightly dividing the Word of God and share the real Jesus Christ of the Bible, the Son of the Living God, and His Atoning Blood and Sacrifice on Calvary, so

that whosoever will believe upon Him shall be saved. Not of works or of anything man can do but, by the precious atoning Blood of the Lamb of God. Ray, Jesus is calling you and He will forgive you, if you will bury your pride and selfishness, and ask Jesus to help you to see truth, so that you can rightly divide the Word of God in Truth.

The Devil had “I? problems. Five times he stated , “ I will be like the most high, I will exalt, I will, I will, I will. All through your writings, it is evident that you too have “I? problems. Everything you write, you always relate to yourself, of what you know, what you understand, what you leaned, etc. etc. etc. Ray, you have “I? problems, the first true sign of someone who has stayed from the true word of God and has started glorifying himself for his accomplishments, for his knowledge, for his ill conceive thoughts and by attacking those who don’t agree. Ray, your on your way to self destruction and for adding to the word of God you are adding the plagues upon yourself for these evil deeds you are performing. Soon you will be on your way to Michigan to spread your lies, and untruths. Since you have been warned, by the Word of God, not by me, if you continue on this road of ruin , you will be opening the doors to your downfall and destruction for failing to listen to Gods warnings. I have read where others before has warned you.

Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Bruce


Dear Bruce:

I wanted to read all of your email, but there just isn't enough money in the world to make me do that. But I did read about half, till I came to this beautiful statement that I will quote below.

Throughout your emails you totally reject the Scriptural teaching that God's perfect gift is for ALL mankind, as most of mankind will burn in hell, you say.  And you assure us over and over that the life and blood of Jesus will NOT redeem mankind, but only a few from eternal hell fire. But then.....BUT THEN, Bruce, you make this contradicting statement which makes your whole email nothing but blasphemy:
 
"You haven’t understood that the most terrible insult and evil man can do to his Creator, is to completely reject the most wonderful, precious and perfect gift God has given to mankind, His life and blood in order to redeem man from a eternal hell fire."
 
No, Bruce, I don't reject the fact that God's most precious and perfect gift ever given to MANKIND, His Son's life and blood in order to REDEEM MAN, but YOU DO!!

Ray
Logged

rvhill

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2006, 07:31:03 PM »

I find this to be an interesting list:
All false teachers share certain characteristics.
He will deny the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

He will deny the inerrancy of the Bible as the inspired and revealed Word of God and as the absolute and final authority in faith and life.

He may lower Jesus to being just a man and mix him with other prophets or teachers.

He will advocate a salvation based upon good works or service, and deny salvation by the shed blood of Christ crucified at Calvary as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins, and that all who trust in Him as their

personal Savior are redeemed and justified on the grounds of His shed blood alone.

The reputation of a false teacher will not be consistent.
a. He will exaggerate his successes.
b. He will minimize his failures.
c. He will say something one time then give various explanations the next time.
d. He makes statements that will only come partly true or part of the time.

. He will appeal to the people's desire for special revelational knowledge.

He will claim that he alone has that special knowledge.

He will use empathy and flattery to draw people to himself.

He will threaten people with the loss of their salvation.

His prophecies may be general in nature.

He will use enticing words to appeal to his audience.

He will demonstrate strong emotions of acceptance and disapproval.

He will use religious babble or jargon and attach his own meanings to the words.

He will have problems in submitting to authority.

He will claim special divine encounters for himself.

He is good at using one Scripture as truth to the exclusion of the rest.

He will use obscure (or little known) Scriptures to validate his teachings.

He will violate principles of Biblical interpretation.
a. He will use historical statements as allegory.
b. He will use allegorical statements as literal.

He will only associate with other people that are like minded with him.

He may reference extra Biblical materials as primary sources for his authority.

He will exhibit pride and stubbornness in his authority.

He will personally be strongly drawn toward the miraculous.

He will generally give an unbalanced view of man, mixing believers and unbelievers together.

He will attempt to isolate his followers from others that have a different view from his.


  I wonder how many the writer is guilty of? I wounder who is guilty of more items on this list Ray or the writer?
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Steve Crook

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2006, 08:39:33 PM »

This man has NO CLUE who Christ is. He is typical of those he accuses, as having another Jesus. It truly saddens me, but all is of the will of God.
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shibboleth

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2006, 09:21:19 PM »

I can't believe I read the whole thing! That was one of the longest e-mails Ray has answered on the Forum.
This guy really believes that hell is going to be full of real brimstone and real fire. Spiritual bodies burning with real fire? How is that possible? He doesn't quote one scripture to support what he's saying, or one scripture to dispute what Ray is saying.
This man gives a long list of what a false teacher is. One thing I thought was funny is this one: He will use flattery to draw people to himself. Ray has never used flattery to draw anyone to himself. Ray has never threatened anyone with loss of salvation. The meanings Ray gives to words are historical and scriptually accurate.
This man says less in 10 pages than Ray does in one paragraph. I hope God opens his dull and blind eyes.
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Falconn003

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2006, 01:27:32 AM »

a
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 08:01:58 AM by Falconn003 »
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e.

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2006, 08:19:07 AM »

Quote
the Devil will once again use words, and vain babblings to bring about confusion in this world


I have never heard more or worse "Vain Babblings" than I heard in the "Christian Church"...
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2006, 11:19:10 AM »

Not only puffed up nonsense scripturally but his statement that 2/3 of the world's children die before age 12? Really? Where is the documentation for this "fact," the same place he drew his other conclusions/accusations? That was incredible, sad actually.

Joe
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deejcop

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2006, 02:54:03 PM »

Wow. I was only able to read a little less than half of this mess. I asked myself, if I had to choose between reading this whole email, and getting every hair on my body plucked out one by one with a tweezer...it'd probably take me awhile to figure out which would be more painful. But here is what really caught my attention in the portion of the email that I was able to stomach. Mr Bruce said,

"Debating with you over the meaning of a word and what is the true meaning in order to disseminate your view is immaterial."

This tells me that Mr Bruce, and probably the majority of orthodox christians, couldn't care less about what the original words used in scripture meant before it was butchered...I mean, translated. It matters not to Bruce and the like, that four different hebrew and greek words were translated into the christian "hell"(Sheol, gehenna, hades and tartarus)-neither one having any meaning of an eternal fiery pit of torture whatsoever.  In essense, what Bruce is saying is, "I don't care what the original words mean. If they don't line up with the traditional views that I've been taught and adhere to, then they're not worth paying attention to."

That's why it's no doubt that if God doesn't give us eyes to see and ears to hear, then we all would be writing long nonsensical emails just like Mr Bruce's.
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orion77

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2006, 05:25:49 PM »

Whew!!!  The carnal mind and the spiritual mind.  There definetly is a great gulf fixed between the two.

Drinking castor oil or getting your hairs plucked out!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
I hear ya.

He must be in seminary college or a recent graduate, still has his study notes.

A great blinding light will wake him up one day.  8)

God bless.

Gary
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gmik

  • Guest
fear of the Lord
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2006, 07:10:35 PM »

Whew! I read it all.  Just proved to me that I don't believe a word of that nonsense anymore. Funny thing,  a false prophet leads you to LOSE your salvation???Ha. Our whole premise is EVERYONE will gain their salvation. Well, guess that proves ole Ray isn't a false prophet!
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dogcombat

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2006, 11:12:46 AM »

I guess I'll read his whole post on nights when I have insomnia.  I almost fell asleep 1/3 of the way down his post.

Ches
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SandyFla

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2006, 04:26:12 PM »

Here is the part that got me:

"If God would at some later date forgive man and forgive and forget of all his sins, and the lost man would not have to pay for his sins for eternity, and then God’s love would outweigh His judgment. That would be impossible, for each of God’s attributes are in complete and total harmony with each other, and one attribute cannot not and will not overcome or cancel out the other."

Then, I would ask Mr. Bruce, how can you or I or anyone possibly be saved and forgiven? If God forgives you or me, then, as you say, we "would not have to pay for (our) sins for eternity."

If Mr. Bruce REALLY believes what he wrote, we are all eternally lost!  :roll:

Sandy
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YellowStone

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2006, 11:37:22 PM »

Quote from: SandyFla
Here is the part that got me:

"If God would at some later date forgive man and forgive and forget of all his sins, and the lost man would not have to pay for his sins for eternity, and then God’s love would outweigh His judgment. That would be impossible, for each of God’s attributes are in complete and total harmony with each other, and one attribute cannot not and will not overcome or cancel out the other."

Then, I would ask Mr. Bruce, how can you or I or anyone possibly be saved and forgiven? If God forgives you or me, then, as you say, we "would not have to pay for (our) sins for eternity."

If Mr. Bruce REALLY believes what he wrote, we are all eternally lost!  :roll:

Sandy


I think Bruce is not seeing the forest for the trees.   :roll:

He states that "...for each of God’s attributes are in complete and total harmony with each other, and one attribute cannot not and will not overcome or cancel out the other."

Kind of makes sense to me. NOT!!!  God is God!!  Not God is his attributes, God is not confined by the boundaries and limitations of simple man (the likes of Bruce and dare I say "I")

    1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.[/list:u]

    Perhaps Bruce should consider the love a parent has for a child. My parents demanded respect and made it very clear what was expected of me. Oh and they dished out punishment when needed; but their love for me was never questioned. Not once in my life did I ever doubt my folks love for me.

    Did we not learn in:
      Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image...[/list:u]If a parent can punish yet still love, and a child receive punishment by still fill that love, then surely these attributes are from God. Surely this refutes Bruces argument with the logic a child can understand.

      Or am I the mistaken one?   :)

      Darren
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theyachtman

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2006, 02:41:52 AM »

Saul of Tarsus??
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SandyFla

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2006, 01:29:54 PM »

Quote from: YellowStone
Perhaps Bruce should consider the love a parent has for a child. My parents demanded respect and made it very clear what was expected of me. Oh and they dished out punishment when needed; but their love for me was never questioned. Not once in my life did I ever doubt my folks love for me.

Did we not learn in:
    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image...[/list:u]If a parent can punish yet still love, and a child receive punishment by still fill that love, then surely these attributes are from God. Surely this refutes Bruces argument with the logic a child can understand.

    Or am I the mistaken one?   :)

    Darren


Nope, Darren, you hit the nail on the head. My parents also punished me, but I never doubted their love. I do the same with my little ones. I tell them, "I might not always be pleased with you, but I always love you."

Now, if I being evil, as Jesus says, can love my kids unconditionally that way, how much more does God love us--ALL of us?

Sandy
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jennie

  • Guest
dad's
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2006, 04:08:07 PM »

My Daddy used to tell me "this is going to hurt me more than you" and I used to be thinking, " well, let's just change places then"!
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mike

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2006, 07:36:25 PM »

Heb 12:10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure;
i thought that was the way of things when i was a kid; when i had my own all doubt was removed.  what a wonderful way to relieve a stressful day.

(i'm only kidding i think)
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Origen II

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2006, 11:34:56 AM »

This Bruce guy is all full of hot hair.

He insults Ray more than Ray has ever harshly dealt with someone in this entire sight.

Here would have been my rebuttal:

Bruce...you're a Pharisee. Have a nice day.

I think that statement would have summed it up.
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jennie

  • Guest
Bobby
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2006, 03:33:01 PM »

Don't make yourself sick Bobby but I am eager to read what you come up with!
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Falconn003

  • Guest
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fool
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2006, 03:40:49 PM »

jennie

What a pun, a very good one at that. lol

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

i fer one, do not want to know what you come up with bobby (((stomache wise that is))), just take some tums and hope ya feel better there bro........ :oops:



Rodger
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