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Author Topic: two resurection question  (Read 3334 times)

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CEO

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two resurection question
« on: May 20, 2008, 05:14:47 PM »

Following logically Ray's most recent instalment:

Each person goes through two resurections ?

For the Elect:

     1) a resurection in bodily form - mortal, for the elect who are dead in Christ
         to sin, resurected in Christ; to go through judgment by fire and ultimately
         followed by physical death to

     2) a resurection with a spiritual body; immortal to continue our journey in
         the spiritual realm

For the rest of us:

     1) a resurection in bodily form - mortal, from the grave to judgment by fire
         unto the second death followed by

     2)resurrection in Christ

       ??????????????????

       Askseeknock

       Charles
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Kat

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2008, 07:26:01 PM »


Hi Charles,

Here is a section of the paper - D5 Hell: Hades & the Second Death, Heb. 9:27.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -----

"And as it is appointed unto men [Gk: 'anthropose'--human, mankind] once to die, but after this the judgment"

This Scripture is all-encompassing, universal, and applies to every human who has ever lived. All humanity must die once, and after that death, they must be judged. There are no exceptions, not even for mentally challenged, teens, youngsters and even infants. (Do sound-minded Christians really believe that when babies die they go to heaven and therefore, there will be millions of eternal babies [in diapers?] living in heaven for all eternity AS BABIES?) God has a way to deal with babies and infants in the Day of Judgment that will be quite equitable -- they will grow up to be adults.
--------------------------------------------

So all of humanity must follow this "once to die, but after this the judgment." 

The way I understood this, the Elect die in Christ (spiritually to self), this is the "once to die" and then go on, to here in this life "after this the judgment".  Of course we go on to physically die.

The rest of humanity die physically in this life and go to the grave, this is "once to die" for them.  Then they are raised at the resurrection of the dead to "after this the judgment," in the Great white throne judgment.  They will go on to die in Christ and receive salvation.

Hope that is what you asking  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Cypress

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 12:02:19 AM »

Kat, do you still feel this way? I've been reading studies on the second death, and came to wondering what the first death is...like the above verse, it is appointed for man to die once, then the judgment. I came across this in the forum:

Quote from: Felix on November 20, 2011, 12:28:32 PM
Hi everyone. I have a question.

I've been reading the section on "The Secret Rapture". This has been the most difficult part of
Ray's teaching for me to understand.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Not all shall be put to repose (death).
Isn't it appointed for man once to die and then the ressurection? We are not immortal. Doesn"t
everyone die?

Felix


Everyone dies the 2nd Death, which is the Lake of Fire. Not everyone will die physically, as people will be on the earth when Christ returns. Here is some additional notes from Ray regarding this 2nd death:

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-E (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm):

WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?

But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:8 ).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Elaine

Cypress

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Elaine

Kat

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 12:55:36 AM »


Hi Cypress,

I'm not always so good at expressing myself, but here is what I posted.

Quote
the Elect die in Christ (spiritually to self), this is the "once to die" and then go on, to here in this life "after this the judgment."

Now here is from what you posted from Ray's article.

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

When we are "baptized into Jesus Christ we're baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH." That is what I was trying to say when I put die in Christ (spiritually to self). Being baptized into His death is dying spiritual to self, "dying daily."  Here is more from the same article.

 http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -------------

All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry that was not clear, I hope this from Ray made it more understandable.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Cypress

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 09:39:03 AM »

I understand. In some ways I always understood the concept of the second death...but just thought that for the elect, it was a first death (lol I know that makes no sense). I just thought of us going through it in our lifetimes...so then I got to thinking and reading Ray's post...what is the first death then? I understand his response. What about physical death. Does that cone into play?
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Elaine

Kat

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 11:41:25 AM »


Hi Cyress,

I found where Ray explans this in his article and I will put that here.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ------------------

WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?

But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
-----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 10:22:32 AM by Kat »
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Memme

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 12:17:07 PM »

Kat

I won't repeat all the verses already quoted but it can be confusing to those who still equate our 'physical' death to the 'first' DEATH.  Maybe an explanation that the those who have not experienced 'dying with Christ' are already spiritually dead (the way I understand it)--the FIRST death.  Jesus said 'let the dead (spiritually) bury the dead (physically)'.  We all live spiritually under the law of  'death' until we are chosen to die with Christ so we are DEAD.

So, actually, the elect experience the 'second' death when dying with Christ (being baptized unto death).  The world will experience the 'second' death in the LOF.  The physical death isn't actually even counted as it is all Spiritual ('My words are spirit').

Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Barbara 
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Kat

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 03:49:08 PM »


Hi Barbara,

Yes this is confusing when you are trying to understand the Scriptural terms and how they apply to us now. I'll just continue to bring up parts of Ray's article, if I can, to explain these different aspects.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------------------

"And as it is appointed unto men [Gk: 'anthropose'--human, mankind] once to die, but after this the judgment"

Now get ready for a real revelation. There are two mysteries in Heb. 9:27 when applied to God's Elect:

what and when is the "ONCE to die?"

what and when is the "after this JUDGMENT?"

We will take up the Elect's Judgment part of this verse first.

We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.

 GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT
v
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).
---------------------------------------------------------

So it's called the "second death" because it is the death of the carnal beast within us, usually after physical death for the world. But this is not something that happens all at once, it's a process, it's judgment through chastisement, purging and correction. For the elect it's now, as we live this life and for the rest of mankind in the LOF after the great white throne judgment at Christ's return.

Now all of mankind are born spiritually dead, until God opens their eyes, but this is not the first death. "It is appointed unto men once to die," this is the first death and it's physical death of the body for all of mankind, the many, but not the elect.

So the elect must also go through a symbolic "once to die" before judgment and that is represented in baptism. The water pictures going down into the grave and burying our old self and coming up out of the water represents resurrection to a new life in Christ. Then the elect go through the "second death" during this life, being judged and dying to self, "dying daily." The elect will also go on to a physical death.

1Peter 4:17  For the time has come for judgment (second death) to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 08:30:37 PM by Kat »
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cjwood

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 08:15:58 PM »

thank you so much kat for reposting these articles by ray.  they are invaluable!

claudia
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santgem

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Re: two resurection question
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2012, 03:52:43 AM »

 Thank you Kat for the re posted articles.

Truly the Elect experienced the second death (daily) in their life and with them the promise.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 2:11

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:6
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