There but for the Grace of God

[EKnight]

I am listening to Ray's audio on the sovereignty of God for the second time.  He talks about Sadam and his sons being despicable people and how any one of us could have been them but for the Grace of God.  Okay, I get that, believe that and try to look at people who make me angry and feel hate and say that phrase to myself.  In other words, I am just lucky that I am not that hated person but not because of anything I have done but rather because God did not choose me to be that evil person.  I am good and comfortable with that notion UNTIL I think of one of those evil persons hurting someone I love.  Does that mean I really don't truly feel that way?  I know that if someone hurt someone I love, I would be mighty angry and there is no way the thought 'there but for the Grace of God' would enter my head! 

Eileen

[carol v]

I agree Eileen that these things are much easier to accept in the abstract. I think of Daniel Pearl and his wife and parents and hope they didn't have to see his beheading on the internet. And there are a million Daniel Pearls -- sons and daughters dying violently. As a mother, the thought of my sons in this position...well, I would not be saying "but for the grace of God" either.

Ray mentions some things on the tape that are despicable that Sadam and his sons did -- feeding a woman alive to starved dogs...I don't know why evil must be so evil but I accept that God knows better than me. I have no answers for you. I just have prayers that the "sore travail" my sons face in their lifetimes won't have to include this kind of evil.

Carol

[David]

I am listening to Ray's audio on the sovereignty of God for the second time.  He talks about Sadam and his sons being despicable people and how any one of us could have been them but for the Grace of God.  Okay, I get that, believe that and try to look at people who make me angry and feel hate and say that phrase to myself.  In other words, I am just lucky that I am not that hated person but not because of anything I have done but rather because God did not choose me to be that evil person.  I am good and comfortable with that notion UNTIL I think of one of those evil persons hurting someone I love.  Does that mean I really don't truly feel that way?  I know that if someone hurt someone I love, I would be mighty angry and there is no way the thought 'there but for the Grace of God' would enter my head! 

Eileen

Hi Eileen. Great post here, and a very emotive subject.
18 months ago, a drunk driver who happened to be actually drinking behind the wheel slammed his car into my youngest brother who was riding his motorbike on the opposite side of the road. He was smashed into a cliff face, air lifted to hospital, but died on the way. He was 37, successful, happily married, had a 7yr old son, very popular in the area he lived in. The guy responsible confessed to consuming over 25 bottles of beer in less than 12 hours after witnesses who were with him gave statements. He got 6 1/5 years in prison. I felt pretty much the same as you are describing for a while.
One day God laid something on me that made me realize that what I was feeling was wrong.
How many times as a foolish young man did I get behind the wheel when maybe I had too much to drink, when I shouldn't have been driving, when I was breaking the law, when the grace of God saw to it that I didn't get caught or have an accident? Many times I'm ashamed to say.
There but for the grace of God, that young man in prison who has the death of my brother on his conciense could well have been me.
God bless you
David.

[ellie77]

Many of us have have had experiences where someone we love or ourselves has been hurt on various levels by another.Daily we watch thousands die from starvation,be killed ,starved,kept in the most evil forms of slavery,tortured et.
    'There but for the grace of God go I' stands us in good stead as does forgiveness.I also keep an eye on myself to see if I am offended,that I find is a dreadful taunt and temptation".Being offended."How hard it is.We are to love every one but we can hate the evil they do.
     Hope I have that right.And it is a challenge......Peace Ellie.

[Roy Monis]

Many of us have have had experiences where someone we love or ourselves has been hurt on various levels by another.Daily we watch thousands die from starvation,be killed ,starved,kept in the most evil forms of slavery,tortured et.
    'There but for the grace of God go I' stands us in good stead as does forgiveness.I also keep an eye on myself to see if I am offended,that I find is a dreadful taunt and temptation".Being offended."How hard it is.We are to love every one but we can hate the evil they do.
     Hope I have that right.And it is a challenge......Peace Ellie.

Hi! ellie77 and David.

This is indeed a very interesting thread, but I feel it has to be viewed from two perspectives. One from the perspective of an offender who is guilty of the same offense but not caught; "There by the grace of God go I!" who is in need of forgiveness. And two from the perspective of the offended party who is left with a mountain of emotional trauma which needs to be forgiven.

Everyone is capable of rash, unthinking and cruel outbursts with the tongue or pen; "So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!......But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. (Jas.5,8). And the pen also is a very small item but boasts of power mightier than the sword.

But very few are capable of the necessary compassion and forgiveness to meet God's requirement.

Blessed indeed is the man or woman who is capable of such compassion and forgiveness under such stressful conditions.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[kweli]

Hello everyone.

Eileen, I understand what you are saying even more so now than I used to. Imagine seeing a picture/footage of a person being burnt alive, with police officers in the background laughing their lungs out. Like practically mocking the person in flames. All for being a refugee, a foreigner, someone who escaped from their country and came to yours to seek refuge. And to top it off, someone who's country once took in people from your country as refugees when your people themselves where in a similar dilemma some years before. 'Exile' (meaning refugees who are welcomed in another country) was similar to the Israelites walking with God in the wilderness for these people back then. Some got schooled, got jobs and/or high positions in foreign countries. But now, them having refugees in their country becomes a visual spiritual warfare.

It's not easy to not get angry but you are right. For the Grace of God, it could have been us burning alive. For the Grace of God, it could have been us back then in their country. These are pills not very easy to swallow but it's then that we come before Him in thanksgiving, which is even harder when it's your loved one being burnt alive.

Only God can bring us comfort:

Psalm 37
1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
3 Trust in the LORD and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD, and He shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in Him, and He shall bring it to pass.
6 And He shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
7 Rest in the LORD and wait patiently for Him; fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
8 Cease from anger and forsake wrath; fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off; but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall not be; yea, thou shalt diligently look for his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

[Sozo]

As I read through this thread, I am reminded of the genocides that take place over in Africa and the middle East.  Villages are raided and everyone is raped, tortured and murdered except for many of the young boys.  These boys are taken and turned into soldiers.  The boys grow up and turn into the same horrible monsters that destroyed there village.  They in turn go out and rape, torture and murder other men, women and children.  And the cycle goes on.

Now, what if we were in one of these villages?  What if we survived the attack, but our son was taken from us?  Ten years later you see your son and he is now one of the soldiers raiding your village.  Your son, this monster is now raping, torturing and killing the people you love right in front of your eyes.  So here's the question:  Do you see the monster he has become....or do you see your son?

Ray's teaching of being under God's grace really hits home when you think about this!

[ciy]

This is a great thread that gets into an area that we all must go in order to come to the realization of the vastness and completeness of God's plan.  It goes to the heart of the truth to realize that it is all the same and we are all the beast.  We are all guilty of all.  We are all the greatest sinner. 

I watched a movie a while back called "Blood Diamond".  In that movie and now in other info I have read and researched, many people from men to children are killed, tortured, beat, etc in the process of getting diamonds to the market.  Now who is the most guilty the man who gets drunk and accidently kills someone or is the blushing, beautiful bride and all of her friends more guilty when they go ga-ga over a beautiful diamond that has caused the killing of thousands of people over the years.  We never think, "You know if the demand for diamonds when to zero we could save many lives of men, women, and children."  If we do think it we soon pass the thought and go back into the world wanting our cake and eating it too.

We are all the beast and none is without guilt.  The beauty of God's plan is that if you really meditate on this truth it actually will set you free.

CIY

[EKnight]

Thanks for all your replies.  I feel a lot better now.