The 2 Witnesses, 24 Elders, and 144,000 sealed?

[OBrenda]

I know Ray must have taught on this somewhere, but I am unable to find it.  Can someone help understand in the book of REV whom the 2 Witnesses are, along with the 24 Elders, and the Sealed 144,000

Also I understand that we are the "BEAST" and the number "666" but what our your thoughts on the family in Florida that is currently implanted with chips in their hand to purchase & sell thing??

Thanks,
Brenda

[carol v]

Hi Brenda,

I will attempt this one. Numbers are spiritual in scripture. There is at least one book I know on the subject. The two witnesses, 24 elders and 144,000 are all symbolically the elect. The way numbers work in scripture is pretty amazing but in this case, we know there were 12 disciples. Two witnesses times 12 disciples = 24 elders. 12 disciples times 12 disciples = 144,000. A 144,000 is also divisible by 24, 12 and 2.

I'm not explaining this very well but basically the numbers are not literal but spiritual:

2 = the number of witness

Deu 17:6  At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Mar 6:7  And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;


12 = the number of spiritual foundation/Christ in completion

Gen 49:28  All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spoke unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Num 7:84  This was the dedication of the altar, in the day when it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold:

Mat 10:1  And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Mar 5:42  And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.

The above scriptures don't really explain that those numbers are the elect but they show you that the numbers are not chosen randomly or literally. They are chocked full of spiritual meaning.

144,000 becomes the spiritual representation of the foundation of God's kingdom magnified (12 x 12) -- a witness and a part of the foundation -- that foundation which is Christ -- the elect that are a witness both to that foundation and a part of it themselves.

I hope I haven't confused you.

As far as the family in Florida, they are no more and no less the beast with their implants than I am without the implants. The mark of the beast is also spiritual and not literal. The mark is on the forehead and on the hand to represent our thoughts and actions -- are they of man, 666, or of God and Christ. God knows our hearts, minds and actions and doesn't need to see a literal mark.

There is an email of Ray's explaining the buy and sell. I have to go to class right now but if no one has pointed you in that direction when I get back -- I'll do a search. Needless to say, it has nothing to do with your abiity to buy and sell groceries

Carol

[OBrenda]

Hi Carol,

Thanks, you haven't confused me but I think I still have some old cobwebs hanging in there.  So these are not symbols that represent actual individual souls/persons?  I do see the patterns in the scriptures you gave.  Are all of these symbols of numbers (2/12/24/144,000) describing the same thing the "Elect".  Are there different levels of the Elect or Gifts that they are referring too?

I surely appreciate your time to help me with this

[carol v]

As far as the different levels of the elect --not if they really are the elect. But now, yes. Just because God has shown us more truth than others does not mean that we will "endure to the end" and all the other requirements of being truly elect. There was a great thread a few weeks ago on this. Look back a few pages.

The numbers are all spiritually describing the elect and not a specific 2, 12, or 144K.

As far as gifts go, well there is certainly a difference in the gifts. Paul describes this but I'm just seriously too tired tonight to seek it out. But some teach, some preach, some heal, etc. Ray certainly has a teaching ability that I don't!

I'll come back to this thread tomorrow when I'm fresher. Kind of brain dead after my class. Maybe someone else will chime in here with more info for you.

The search feature on the site works great for these kind of questins by the way. You can find the instructions on how to search the site here:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5460.0.html

Good night all,
Carol

[mharrell08]

As far as the different levels of the elect --not if they really are the elect. But now, yes. Just because God has shown us more truth than others does not mean that we will "endure to the end" and all the other requirements of being truly elect. There was a great thread a few weeks ago on this. Look back a few pages.

Carol

Hello Brenda,

Here is the link to the thread that Carol was referring to.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7264.0.html

Also Part 16-D3 of the Lake of Fire Series 'The Sermon on the Mount is For You, Now' has some extensive teaching from Ray regarding the Elect and their Judgement which is going on now as the Elect shall have no part of the 2nd Death aka The Lake of Fire.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm

Also, I don't know if you've read the first installment of the Lake of Fire (LOF) series, but Ray goes into great depths to show how the book of Revelations is a book of symbols or symbolism. So when you read stories like the family in Florida and the story has a physical, literal reference that 'seems' like a prophecy from the book, know that it is just part of the great deception that is sent into the world:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion..." [2 Thess 2:11] 

"They have not known nor understood: for He hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand." [Isaiah 44:18] 

"And he [Jesus] said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." [Luke 8:10]

Hope this helps,

Marques

[Roy Monis]

Hi Brenda,

I will attempt this one. Numbers are spiritual in scripture. There is at least one book I know on the subject. The two witnesses, 24 elders and 144,000 are all symbolically the elect. The way numbers work in scripture is pretty amazing but in this case, we know there were 12 disciples. Two witnesses times 12 disciples = 24 elders. 12 disciples times 12 disciples = 144,000. A 144,000 is also divisible by 24, 12 and 2.

I'm not explaining this very well but basically the numbers are not literal but spiritual:

2 = the number of witness

Deu 17:6  At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Mar 6:7  And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;


12 = the number of spiritual foundation/Christ in completion

Gen 49:28  All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spoke unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Num 7:84  This was the dedication of the altar, in the day when it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold:

Mat 10:1  And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Mar 5:42  And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.

The above scriptures don't really explain that those numbers are the elect but they show you that the numbers are not chosen randomly or literally. They are chocked full of spiritual meaning.

144,000 becomes the spiritual representation of the foundation of God's kingdom magnified (12 x 12) -- a witness and a part of the foundation -- that foundation which is Christ -- the elect that are a witness both to that foundation and a part of it themselves.

I hope I haven't confused you.

As far as the family in Florida, they are no more and no less the beast with their implants than I am without the implants. The mark of the beast is also spiritual and not literal. The mark is on the forehead and on the hand to represent our thoughts and actions -- are they of man, 666, or of God and Christ. God knows our hearts, minds and actions and doesn't need to see a literal mark.

There is an email of Ray's explaining the buy and sell. I have to go to class right now but if no one has pointed you in that direction when I get back -- I'll do a search. Needless to say, it has nothing to do with your abiity to buy and sell groceries

Carol

Hi! Carol

What are you teaching and who are you teaching? I could do with you coming and teaching me if the above is anything to go by. That was indeed great stuff, so when can I expect you?

It'll be such a change from listening to Benny Hinn's lies and getting robbed in the bargain.



God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[carol v]

Hi Roy, I'd love to come visit! I'm not teaching any one and none of that is original with me. The study of numbers has so opened up the scripture to me though. Glad you found it interesting and thanks for the help on the thread!

Benny Hinn isn't nearly so interesting since he cut his hair swoop

Carol

[OBrenda]

Thank You...Marques,

I read the links that you and Carol pointed me to.  The scriptures are making more sense to me concerning the Elite.  I know it will become clearer as I continue on with the "Renewing" of my mind from past teachings that interpret Revelations literally instead of symbolically.  I'm still a little confussed about the numbers and what they represent (I know ultimately they represent what Carol said..."The Elite").  Maybe I'm just over thinking it?

Thanks for your Time & Help!

[OBrenda]

As far as the different levels of the elect --not if they really are the elect. But now, yes. Just because God has shown us more truth than others does not mean that we will "endure to the end" and all the other requirements of being truly elect. There was a great thread a few weeks ago on this. Look back a few pages.

The numbers are all spiritually describing the elect and not a specific 2, 12, or 144K.

As far as gifts go, well there is certainly a difference in the gifts. Paul describes this but I'm just seriously too tired tonight to seek it out. But some teach, some preach, some heal, etc. Ray certainly has a teaching ability that I don't!

I'll come back to this thread tomorrow when I'm fresher. Kind of brain dead after my class. Maybe someone else will chime in here with more info for you.

The search feature on the site works great for these kind of questins by the way. You can find the instructions on how to search the site here:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5460.0.html

Good night all,
Carol

Thank You Very Much Carol!

Hope you enjoyed your class last night.  If you can teach like that when you are "brain dead" then I can't imagine what a blessing you are first thing in the morning after a cup of coffee!

Warm hugs,