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Author Topic: Non-believers  (Read 3546 times)

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EKnight

  • Guest
Non-believers
« on: June 05, 2008, 10:54:19 PM »

I am very disheartened after having a discussion about God and the bible with one of my sons(he is 20).  I tried to explain if he read the prophets of the old testament and then saw the results in the new testament he might then believe in the validity of the bible.  He likened it to the predictions of Nostra Damus(sp?).  That when the twin towers fell people said his predictions came to be( which neither he nor I believe) and the New Testament is like that. He said that the prophecies of the old Testament are vague and so could have easily been accounted for by the writers of the New Testament.


Well, I got angry and upset as I always do when I try to get my children to believe.  I never succeed.  I know that God is not dragging/drawing them.  And if it is not God's will and it causes me grief, should I even bother with those whose ear will not hear?  He said if his life is already mapped out for him and he is going through the lake of fire anyway, why does he need to bother with the bible?  I said if you believe that God sacrificed His Son, then you owe Him gratitude for that and all other good that comes into your life.  Then I got a little angrier and said "but you don't want to owe anyone anything, you want to think that you are most powerful!"  Then I cursed and said "okay, you're right, to hell with all of this."

I don't know why I feel this need to be heard on the subject of God and get angry when my kids dismiss it.  Even my husband won't give up his free will.  He said causes and influence are not the same thing.  Yes, he said, God influences us but we are still at liberty to make the choice.  A cause he says is if I put my foot on the gas pedal it the car will move.  I responded as such:  We were driving in the car and tossing back and forth the idea of stopping at the McDonalds and decided to stop.  So I said to him, suppose as we pull off to the Mcdonald's that that car in front of us spun out of control, we would surely be involved in the accident but because our time to go is not in God's plan right now, for reasons unbeknownst to us, we decided to go to McDonald's and now our lives are spared.  Can you say this was not God working in us?  He didn't really have an answer but I am not sure he gave up his free will.

Any thoughts on how I should continue with my family on these matters?

Eileen
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Vangie

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2008, 11:30:18 PM »

Hi Eileen,

Congrats for getting as far as you have, especially with your hubby.  Small steps from your perspective, but huge in what you've been able to relay thus far.  Remember it's all in God's time, not our own to open our loved ones' eyes and you've made great progress IMO!  Thank you for sharing, I feel so hopeful!  My take on your ending question is not to overload them with too much too soon.  Patience.....easier said than done I know--as I'm the poster child for patience deficit disorder.  It's so hard and lonely to understand but not be able to show our loved ones WHAT we understand.  All in God's time, but I think you're really off to a great start in communicating with your family.  If I were the same person I used to be, I'd be jealous  ::)  (Hope that makes sense in a humorous way!)  I hope you keep on studying and building your faith in the truths we're being blessed to receive, and sharing what you learn when the opportunities arise.  It's so exciting to feel connected to other believers!  I hope you keep posting, as I read a whole lot more than I post here.  Looking forward to hearing how things progress for you.

Love in Christ,
Vangie

Rodger, that's so great that your kids have had their eyes and hearts opened! 
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Kitt

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2008, 11:44:56 PM »

Hi Eileen,

The best thing that I can tell you is to relax.  There is nothing that you can do except to set an example, and plant seeds.  Whether or not they grow is up to Yahveh. 

As far as miracles go in the Word of Elohim, to prove His existence,  give people the example of Israel.  Israel went into Egypt as a nation of 70 beings.  They were not assimilated and after 430 years came out of Egypt 600,000 strong plus a diverse multitude.  After 400 some years they were taken into captivity by Babylon for 70 years where they were not assimilated.  They were returned to Israel and Jerusalem by Koresh, (Cyrus) when he was shown the prophesy of Isiah that he, Koresh would do this.  Then after being defeated by the Romans and sent to all of the ends of the earth for almost 2000 years, the most awesome visible miracle of all to date, the dry bones come back to life and Israel is raised from the dead.  Do you see any Cananites or Moabites?

I will join my prayers with yours to our Father Yahveh in the name of His Son Yeshua that he give you peace, comfort and discernment about your husband and children.  I have been where you are and it is very hard to handle.

Peace sister,

Kitt
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2008, 12:05:46 AM »

Don't worry.  Your kids are at that age when most don't believe.  If they're in college, they are probably learning about why god is not necessarry for their existence.  Give em about 10 years to ponder their exiistence whithout a supreme ruller to assure their salvation.  They'll be asking questions then.  Just be glad that you don't have to save them from hell.
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Falconn003

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2008, 02:50:13 AM »

Vangie

Thank you for you kind words, now if i can close my WALLET to them     ;D :D  .... J/K

Without kids life would be a bore. IMHO
Rodger
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Vangie

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2008, 01:15:53 PM »

Good one Rodger!  ;D
And MM, I loved your comment that at least Eileen doesn't have to save them from hell.  Ain't that the truth!  :D

Vangie



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Falconn003

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2008, 03:10:08 PM »

musicman

Yes indeed a BIG      A M E N    to that post.

Rodger
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EKnight

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2008, 03:36:32 PM »

Well thank you for your replies. Once again, I feel better.  They are in college and I have been told this attitude is typical of College Students particularly in this day and age. 

Eileen
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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2008, 11:11:42 AM »

Dear Eileen

My only child is a grandfather now so I've left it a bit toooo late, don't you think? But my hat is off to you for getting as far as you have.



Strange how people only recognize you from the back!

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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David

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 05:02:06 PM »

Hi Eileen,
I can identify with your frustration about your son not believing. I may have mentioned this in another thread before, but I find that some of the worst people (worst is probably an overly negative word, but I can't think of another) at sharing the Gospel and inspiring none believers, are believer's themselves. My advice would be just use what God has left us with in the Bible. In scripture, Jesus Christ used some very deep spiritual cryptic parables when addressing the multitudes that believed on him, and also with his closest apostles. We all know why he did that. Paul, Peter, James, John and Jude did the same in their epistles. But, when addressing none believing Gentiles many times they just kept it simple to begin with, and I believe this is what we should do when given the opportunity to share the Gospel with none believers that God brings into our lives. Sometimes answering a question or an objection to the faith with a question can inspire people to actually think about it more.
Next time you have a conversation with your son, ask him "OK, if the Bible is not true and Jesus Christ is just a story made up 2000 years ago.......explain the last 2000 years of human history without Him. Play "atheists advocate" and lets see how far you get in the last 2000 years of human history without Christ. The development of the European continent, the near east, the Russian/Balkan continent, the USA, and in the last 200 years many parts of Asia owe their society, their history, their culture, just about every aspect of their lives to the very existence of Jesus Christ and His teachings and influence. Government and monarchy alike all over the world have been structured and hugely influenced upon Biblical principles. So, without Jesus Christ there's a huge hole in history that needs to be plugged with something." The secular historian or atheist is then faced with some pretty ridiculous possibilities. There's a lot of very compelling evidence you could present to him. Such as the Gospels and NT writings, both canonical and none canonical, were all written relatively very shortly after the events, much of them by eye witnesses. The people responsible for the NT scriptures we have, and the none canonical writings were faced with deadly opposition from both Jews and Romans, and yet they risked persecution and often execution to share and spread the gospel with the early emerging Church.........and they did this for something that was made up? That's a ridiculous notion when you think about it. Jesus Christ is by far the most reliably reported and written about person in ancient history. No other major figure in ancient history had so much written about them so soon after the events as Jesus Christ. Some scholars put some of the the book of Acts as early as 40 AD, that's only 6 1/2 years after the events, the rest completed in 61 AD. I believe there is evidence in Acts that Marks Gospel was earlier than the date widely accepted by scholars of 50 AD. Whatever the case, all of the NT scriptures were finished by 90 AD, less than 60 years after Christ was here on the earth. Atheists like to point out that Jesus Christ was not written about until "decades" after the events, as if this is an unusual length of time. The fact is compaired to other figures in History such as Alexander, a decade or two after the events is nothing. Not a word was written about Alexander until almost 500 years after his death, yet no Atheist doubts his existence or questions the stories about his conquests. 
Some atheists such as Prof Richard Dawkins acknowledge that Christ existed because the evidence is overwhelming, but claim that He was mearly a charismatic spiritual leader who was very influential, that didn't perform any miracles, that was not the son of God or born of a virgin, that He didn't rise from the dead and ascend to heaven.  Well with these kinds of atheists, when answering their objections we always have the premise that Christ did exist, all answers and objections have to take that fact into account. So starting with His conception and birth, the atheist has to then assume that Mary was a liar, that she risked being stoned to death  for a secret sexual liaison with an unknown person.......highly unlikely. They also have to assume that Joseph, described as a just m,an in scripture was a liar, whom also risked very severe consequences if they were found out. They have to assume that both Mary and Joseph kept up the pretense to the end of Jesus' life. A number of times in the Gospels Jesus is referred to by people that knew of Him and His parents as "the son of Joseph", and so we can deduce that it was common knowledge that He was thought to be the son of Mary and Joseph and people knew this.  By inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and with the help of the Holy Spirit Mary and Joseph kept His true identity a secret until the wedding at Cana. I do not believe they would have managed to have kept such a secret if were of a sordid nature.
Dealing with the miracles, again the atheist has to assume that the sometimes thousands of witnesses were all taken in at exactly the same time by some kind of slight of the hand or magic trick. Just how you get a man to walk out of a tomb after many had seen him dead, and do it all by fakery or trickery is beyond any reasonable explanation. Some would argue that the whole story was made up and never actually happened. Ok then they have to explain why it was written about so soon after the event and no one came forward to say it was fake. We have to assume that those reading it in the early Church believed it, why? Because there were probably many witnesses still alive who had this event still fresh in their memories. Would anyone forget such a thing as long as they lived and had a sound mind? I think not.
The atheists that accept Christ existed tend not to contend His arrest and crucifixion, however the events afterwards they do. Again they have to assume that the very people that had run for their lives and abandoned Him, were suddenly so emboldened as to risk crucifixion themselves for something they had simply dreamt up, a hoax. We know that many of the Apostles went to a horrific death pronouncing Jesus Christ as their RISEN SAVIOR. Is it reasonable or logical to assume that these men were responsible for the greatest hoax in history and were willing to die a horrible death defending it? No, its a stupid suggestion. Its far more reasonable to conclude that these men were so emboldened because of what they had witnessed with their own eyes, Jesus Christ risen from the dead, amongst them and showing them His wounds, and later visited upon by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
I hope this helps you Eileen. I've put these issues to none believers a few times and I find more often than not it gets them thinking more seriously about Christ, rather than just dismissing Him because of foolish ill thought out objections.
May God bless you
David.   
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2008, 06:18:37 PM »

APOLOGETICS TO THE RESCUE!!!!!!  ;D


Thanks David



Marques
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David

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2008, 08:49:52 PM »

APOLOGETICS TO THE RESCUE!!!!!!  ;D


Thanks David



Marques

APOLOGETICS ???

All we ever here from ministers to none believers is "Jesus is Lord, Jesus saves, repent and believe", all very profound truths never to be underestimated or belittled in any way. But here in Britain and in many parts of Europe which has become possibly the most secular culture anywhere, these words mean nothing to none believers. Most will assuredly ask "why is Jesus Lord, how do I know He saves, and why should I believe?" The usual pat answers from ministers rarely has any effect.
Increasingly here in Britain believers do not come from a traditional Christian believing family or are raised in a denomination, because such traditions are disappearing here. More and more Christians are drawn to Christ much later in life, and often through weighing up the arguments for some time.
I believe its not only sound and right to have a sound and spiritual understanding of scripture to enable us to share Gods profound truths with believers coming out of Babylon, but also to be able to share the basic Christian message to none believers should God choose send them our way. In my experience reciting a whole bunch of scripture or getting to "spiritual" or "deep" with a none believer is more often than not a waste of time.
So I  APOLOGIZE   ;D if my post was a little long, but I believe we should always remember the basics as well as seeking the deeper spiritual truths.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 09:02:17 PM by David »
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EKnight

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2008, 10:53:01 PM »

Thanks David.  You have even me more convinced!  Ha ha.

Eileen
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Paul

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2008, 10:04:39 AM »

People don't have control over what they believe in.
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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2008, 01:09:59 PM »

Paul you are absolutely right there

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

1Th 5:24  Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Phi 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Why does God d this?

(Rom 9:15 KJVR)  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

(Rom 9:16 KJVR)  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

(Rom 9:20 KJVR)  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

(Rom 9:21 KJVR)  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
 
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen
                the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and
              God hath chosen
               the weak things of the world to confound the things which       
               are  mighty;

Most people here at BT believe the above scriptures but they are still saddened because they so long for the time when all will see this Truth and believe it.
All of us are told to give answers for what we believe...but from there on then we all know that God Will takes over.

Beloved
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David

  • Guest
Re: Non-believers
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2008, 07:38:56 PM »

People don't have control over what they believe in.

Very true, but we do not share with God the knowledge of whom He is drawing or choosing at any given time. And so we should never let the knowledge that it is "Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will," (Eph 1:11), to allow us to become complaicent, "and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear" 1 Pet 3:15
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