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Author Topic: following resurrection ?  (Read 3899 times)

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Dave UK

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following resurrection ?
« on: June 07, 2008, 06:48:49 AM »

Hi
I just need clarification regarding what happens after both resurrections

I understand that those who attain the first resurrection will have spiritual bodies and immortality, but I'm not clear about those who have to go through judgement.

If death is defeated then presumably they will have immortality also. What sort of bodies will they have following resurrection physical/spiritual ? I'm not quite clear on this point.
thanks
Dave
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musicman

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 11:59:50 AM »

I'm gonna have a body like the Governator Arnold had when he was terminator Arnold.
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mharrell08

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2008, 12:34:00 PM »

I'm gonna have a body like the Governator Arnold had when he was terminator Arnold.

LOL!  :D
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hillsbororiver

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 01:16:03 PM »

Hi Dave,

I go along with the idea that those raised to judgment are raised in physical bodies. Ray touches on this in a couple articles and emails but has yet to write an in depth paper on it.

For me the type/shadow of the resurrection to judgment is about those who were risen with Jesus, we have no indication that they were given immortal, incorruptable bodies like Christ. From this I believe we see a type (Jesus) of the elect raised with a spirit (from above) body and the others a type of those raised to judgment. I think it would be safe to say that those raised did not live a blissful life free from sin, free from trials and tribulations existence but experienced (most likely in varying degrees) the sort of purging that the apostles received.

Not wanting to fuel the fires of speculation but one of my biggest questions in regard to the resurrection/Millenium is what exactly happens when Satan is loosed after the thousand years? We are told he will deceive the nations once again, I really wonder in what manner and what order...... We will find out some day.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   
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Dave UK

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 03:33:36 PM »

Hi
thanks , so basically no one really knows.If I don't make it the first time ,I hope I don't get fooled again as Joe seems to suggest.
Dave
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Kat

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 04:06:35 PM »


Hi Joe,

Quote
my biggest questions in regard to the resurrection/Millenium is what exactly happens when Satan is loosed after the thousand years? We are told he will deceive the nations once again, I really wonder in what manner and what order......


I hope I don't go to far in speculation on this, but there are a few thing I've noticed.  One thing is we have "ages" plural, yet to go.

Eph 2:7  that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

This makes me think that there may be more than one age in "the day of the Lord."  We know that when Christ returns Satan will be bound for 1000 yrs.

Rev 20:2  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

And I think that the resurrection of the dead is to a physical life, so that they can learn righteousness and overcome in the flesh.
So could there be one age, the "thousand years" (not literally that long, it just means a period of time), that is the period of time the Saints rule with Christ on earth.  And then there will be another age when there is "nations" still on earth, so all will not have become one with God yet. 
I was wondering about all those infant and children that grow up in that age with no Satan to deceive them (since he was bound when Christ returns), maybe things will be too easy for them.  Maybe there needs to be a "little season" in which these still left need to be deceived?  Just suppose that being deceived is necessary and all those who lived long enough in this present age to be deceived go on to receive salvation in the beginning of the judgment (which can still take possibly hundreds of yrs). 
But then there is a second age of the judgement?  When those that grow up in the time of Christ ruling the earth, need to go through a little period of deception and then they too receive salvation when the "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Maybe you can make some sense out of all that, I'm just trying to see how Satan being bound fits in too.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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joyful1

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2008, 05:57:29 PM »

;D I won't be sad to shed this old body, regardless of the order or process ahead....I'm so glad I never invested in botox!
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winner08

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2008, 01:18:21 AM »

What is the purpose of the devil deceiving nations? I mean if at the end  time we are ALL SAVED, what is Satan's reward? If He(Satan) is deceiving us as not to beleive in God or His word, still we will be purge of our carnality and we will be as one with God in His Kingdom. Am I missing something? ??? It wouldn't be the first. : Also, is not the book of revelation symbolism? So the story about the devil deceiving the nations and gathering them together for battle. The number of whom are as sands of the sea. Are not these stories and more, speaking of spiritual matters and not literal things that are going to happen? Like I said I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, or the last.


                                         Thanks
                                           Darren


                                             
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jerreye

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2008, 06:07:58 AM »

Personally (not to be dogmatic or anything, just being honest with myself), I do not see any scripture that suggests that anyone is raised with a physical body again (at THE resurrection). Paul said clearly that "THE" resurrection has not taken place. Those who came to life in Jerusalem after Christ's resurrection was not "THE" resurrection or even a part OF "THE" resurrection. Paul makes no connection and neither should we.

I thought it was "First is the natural (physical body), then THEREAFTER, the Spiritual (spiritual body)". I don't see "First the physical, then maybe the physical or the spiritual, depending on which resurrection you rise in, then thereafter, for sure, the spiritual".

If the wicked are raised with physical bodies, can they die again physically? Physical bodies are designed to DIE...PHYSICALLY. Spirits on the other hand, can (only) die to SIN (the second death) seeing that Satan will, one day, be made righteous after his time in the LOF. If Satan, as a spirit, can be made righteous, then why not men? "once to die, THEN the judgment (second death)".

Perhaps we won't know 100% until then :)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 06:10:39 AM by jerreye »
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Kat

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2008, 12:17:17 PM »


I do not see any scripture that suggests that anyone is raised with a physical body again (at THE resurrection). Paul said clearly that "THE" resurrection has not taken place. Those who came to life in Jerusalem after Christ's resurrection was not "THE" resurrection or even a part OF "THE" resurrection. Paul makes no connection and neither should we.

I thought it was "First is the natural (physical body), then THEREAFTER, the Spiritual (spiritual body)". I don't see "First the physical, then maybe the physical or the spiritual, depending on which resurrection you rise in, then thereafter, for sure, the spiritual".

If the wicked are raised with physical bodies, can they die again physically? Physical bodies are designed to DIE...PHYSICALLY. Spirits on the other hand, can (only) die to SIN (the second death) seeing that Satan will, one day, be made righteous after his time in the LOF. If Satan, as a spirit, can be made righteous, then why not men? "once to die, THEN the judgment (second death)".

The way I see it the resurrections that took place during the time that Jesus was on earth was not in any way connected to the Great White Throne Judgment - resurrection of the dead.  It was for a witness that Jesus was really the Christ. 

John 11:41  Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
v. 42  And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me."
v. 43  Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!"

Now consider that everybody in that part of the world, certainly all of Christ's followers knew of these that were resurrected and maybe knew these people.  So they understood about the resurrection of the dead back to physical life.  What Paul was explaining to the "brethren" was what the resurrection to 'life' - first resurrection would be like.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren...

If Paul called them "brethren" they were brothers or believers.  So they knew about the "resurrection of the dead" but where is the resurrection to life ever explained before?  Jesus does mention it is John 5, but does not explain it.

John 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So in 1 Cor. 15 Paul was explaining for the believers, then and now, what the "resurrection to life" would be like.  Besides is there any where else in Scripture  that states those in the resurection of the dead will be Spirit?  I can't find a Scripture anywhere that says that.  What I see in the Scripture is that if you have the Holy Spirit indwelling when you are raised, then you are given "life" to the mortal body. 

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

This "life" is what comes after the physical, this is when the Elect receive the heavenly kingdom.

1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
v.47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
v. 48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
v. 49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Those that "bear the image of the heavenly" must be in Christ and Christ in them.

Eph 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus...
Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4  According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

The "heavenly places" is a spiritual transformation that takes place in the minds of Believers.  Those that have not had this tansformation take place during this life are not of the Elect and will not enter into the "heavenly" until they are coverted in their minds.

Rom 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

To be raised to the heavenly you must spiritually die in this physical life, then you will be raised with Him "in glory" as spirit.

Col 3:1  If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
v. 2  Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
v. 3  For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
v. 4  When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

When humanity is raised from the dead, they have not finished with the physical yet.  They must first be brought to repentance and then they will begin to be transformed in their minds, just like the Chosen are now, this is judgment.  When they have reached the point of overcoming the flesh that God determines, they too will be changed.  I would think it will be like those Elect still alive at Christ's return, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."

I hope this does not confuse, it is just my perspective and I thought others might want to see how it seems possible for the dead to be raised to physical life.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 12:59:20 PM by Kat »
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Phil3:10

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2008, 04:29:39 PM »

Jerreye and Kat,
I agree that once this physical body dies it is dead until the resurrection. The elect/chosen will be with CHRIST and I feel they will become spiritual. The purging and cleansing in the Lake of Fire will bring all to repentance and true belief.  This is so difficult to obtain in our present sin ridden physical state and I feel this is GOD'S plan. Nothing in the flesh is good and only a very few will rule with CHRIST during HIS 1000 years reign. This life is what comes after the flesh, the spiritual body and the physical is dead forever.
However, I am not sure those in the Great White Throne Judgement will be in the flesh. I looked carefully at the verses you mentioned and especially Romans 8:11 which I feels refers to the elect/very elect and not necessarily the called or the many called and not chosen or the rest of sinful humanity.Those still alive when CHRIST returns will be changed in a moment if they are HIS elect/very elect. When humanity is raised from the dead I ask if GOD will be dealing with a fleshly creature or a spiritual one. Judgement is good for all, but do you believe this judgement will occur with mankind in a physical/fleshly state of being. I think these physical bodies are too corrupt for GOD to even want to deal with again and I do think this is HIS plan.
Again, this is my belief and there is so much that I do not know.
Phil3:10
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jerreye

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2008, 02:00:26 AM »

Hi Kat, Falcon, Phil,

I do respect all of you guys and believe that we all are entitled to our opinions. However, I just have a hard time imagining God resurrecting men back to physical bodies. If He does, then is this resurrected flesh "immortal flesh"? Can it be hurt? If it CAN be hurt, then it MUST be subject to death, as PAIN in itself is a signal of impending death! This is the very function of pain. It warns of potential loss and alerts us to FIX the problem, before death occurs. Having said that, I don't  think God would make these physical bodies subject to physical pain, just for "pains sake"...ya know what I mean? Another issue with this is that if these physical bodies can die, then upon death, they would have to be resurrected AGAIN, then maybe even again and again, would they not?! Do you see the problems with this? (If God resurrects all people to immortal spiritual bodies (all varying in glory and splendor as Paul describes), then all of these questions would disappear.)

These are just a few examples why I just have a real hard time believing that these people will be resurrected to physical life. Just because they may be resurrected to spiritual life, does not mean that they will be "holy spirit minded". After all, look at Satan! He is a spirit and he is as carnal as the day is long! However, I absolutely could be wrong in my opinions. Perhaps my mind will be shifted in the near future....I don't know. I will certainly leave room for that possibility :)

Whatever God will do, He will do it in love and He will ALWAYS show mercy in judgment. This is the main thing!
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Kat

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2008, 03:19:49 PM »


Hi Jeremy,

Indeed this is my view, but looking at the Scriptures there are certain things that I see.

Quote
If He does, then is this resurrected flesh "immortal flesh"? Can it be hurt?

Mankind only has to go through a physical death "once."  So...

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

When Christ returns to rule this earth it will be a vastly different world than we know now.  And the way it looks to me,  Christ will not allow people to harm one another anymore.

Rev 21:1  Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
v. 2  Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain (toil, that is, (by implication) anguish: - pain), for the former things have passed away."
v. 5  Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

The earth may look pretty much the same, but the nature of things will be changed. 

Isa 11:4  But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
       And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
       He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
       And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
v. 5  Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
       And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
v. 6  "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
       The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
       The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
       And a little child shall lead them.
v. 7  The cow and the bear shall graze;
       Their young ones shall lie down together;
       And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
v. 8  The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole,
       And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den.
v. 9  They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
       For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
       As the waters cover the sea.


Isa 35:1  The wilderness and the wasteland shall be glad for them,
       And the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose;
v. 2  It shall blossom abundantly and rejoice,
       Even with joy and singing.
       The glory of Lebanon shall be given to it,
       The excellence of Carmel and Sharon.
       They shall see the glory of the LORD,
       The excellency of our God.
v. 3  Strengthen the weak hands,
       And make firm the feeble knees.
v. 4  Say to those who are fearful-hearted,
       "Be strong, do not fear!
       Behold, your God will come with vengeance,
       With the recompense of God;
       He will come and save you."
v. 5  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened,
       And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
v. 6  Then the lame shall leap like a deer,
       And the tongue of the dumb sing.
       For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness,
       And streams in the desert.
v. 7  The parched ground shall become a pool,
       And the thirsty land springs of water;
       In the habitation of jackals, where each lay,
       There shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
v. 8  A highway shall be there, and a road,
       And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.
       The unclean shall not pass over it,
       But it shall be for others.
       Whoever walks the road, although a fool,
       Shall not go astray.
v. 9  No lion shall be there,
       Nor shall any ravenous beast go up on it;
       It shall not be found there.
       But the redeemed shall walk there,
v. 10  And the ransomed of the LORD shall return,
       And come to Zion with singing,
       With everlasting joy on their heads.
       They shall obtain joy and gladness,
       And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

As you can see from these Scriptures there is some incredible changes that will take place on this earth when Christ returns.  I know that all of these things have spiritual meaning, but the Scriptures also have a physical/literal implication as well. 

Just some food for thought  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 11:20:52 PM by Kat »
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jerreye

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 12:10:26 AM »

Hi Kat,

Do these things not happen AFTER the LOF/1000Year reign? Christ says that there shall be indeed be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" when He returns in His kingdom (for those who are outside the city). Then at the END of the thousand years, there is a massive war (so therefore the "former thing have passed away" prophecy can't really be fully fulfilled until the 1000 years come to its full end). So, it seems that the "no pain" and the "no more tears" etc, happen AFTER the reign of the coming ages and not during.

However, perhaps all of these things (new heavens and new earth/no pain etc) are finally realized on an individual level to those who walk out of the LOF during this time period? Now THAT would make sense to me!

Cheers,
Jeremy
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Kat

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Re: following resurrection ?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 01:40:22 AM »



I agree, the Elect are now in this present age going through judgment, because the kingdom of God is at hand for the few NOW.

1Peter 4:17  For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Hi Jeremy,

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
v. 2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.

This is the beginning of the new age when Christ shall reign on earth, the bride is the Elect - new Jerusalem.  The same event is in Rev. 19.

Rev 19:11  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

Of course this is Jesus Christ, He is coming to judge and rule/make war with the nations on earth.

Rev 19:14  And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

This is the Elect, they meet Christ in the air (1 Thes. 4:17), then they return to earth with Him.

Rev 19:15  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Now He begins ruling and judging the nations.  This is not a physical war where there is literal fighting, it is a spiritual war against the beast.  So the end of the chapter is judgment and speaks of His destroying the carnal nature of those on earth in the Lake of fire, it will be on earth.  This is "what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17).

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
v. 20  Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
v. 21  And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 09:57:17 AM by Kat »
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