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Author Topic: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV  (Read 3935 times)

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Paul

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1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« on: June 19, 2008, 09:02:34 PM »

"So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall." (1 Samuel 25:22 KJV)

"thus does Elohim do to the enemies of David, and thus He does add, if I leave of all that he has till the light of the morning--of those sitting on the wall." (CLV)

Why do the translations differ?

This also applies to

1 Samuel 25:34
1 Kings 14:10
1 Kings 16:11
1 Kings 21:21
2 Kings 9:8

« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 09:18:57 PM by Paul »
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indianabob

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2008, 12:53:51 AM »

Paul,

According to an on line Hebrew/English translation called the TanakhML Project. Text Browser the original Hebrew would read "that pisseth against the wall".

My Scofield version has the English word [male] and a note in the margin stating that the original KJV used that phrase as well.

I think it is a matter of polite language being used so as not to offend more sensitive ears.
I suppose that there are some folks who haven't considered that the Hebrew was a comparatively limited language with words defined by context.  This makes it very clear that Samuel isn't speaking about women.

Bob
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Paul

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2008, 01:36:58 AM »

This makes it very clear that Samuel isn't speaking about women.

But not in the CLV. The CLV changes it completely, and it just says those sitting on the wall.
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Roy Monis

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2008, 09:30:28 AM »

"So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall." (1 Samuel 25:22 KJV)

"thus does Elohim do to the enemies of David, and thus He does add, if I leave of all that he has till the light of the morning--of those sitting on the wall." (CLV)

Why do the translations differ?

This also applies to

1 Samuel 25:34
1 Kings 14:10
1 Kings 16:11
1 Kings 21:21
2 Kings 9:8



Hi! Paul

I'd say Bob is right in his assessment the KJV rendering is a bit crude. My NASV Bible renders it like this;
" Nevertheless, as the Lord God of Israel lives, who has restrained me from harming you, unless you had come quickly to meet me, surely there would not have been left to Nabal until the morning light as much as one male. (!Sam.25:34). A males usually urinates against a wall. Strong's concordance #8366 = make water.

The different renderings I believe are for politeness more than anything.

The gist of the matter being that not a male would be left alive, as simple as that. Why the Hebrews had to use that expression I couldn't hazard a guess. Possibly a lack of vocabulary.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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Paul

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2008, 09:13:15 PM »

But how does the Concordant version match up with the other versions?
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rjsurfs

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2008, 09:47:06 PM »

Paul,

You said:
Quote
But how does the Concordant version match up with the other versions?

The answer is that it contains errors...  as do the rest of the translations.  That is why it is good to read and study from a few different translations.  I believe as Ray has shown that the CLV is a pretty good translation most of the time... as is the King James with the exception of a couple of errors (albeit big errors)... but if your eyes are not open what difference does it make?  Conversely if God is going to bring you to understanding he will do it regardless of what translations we have published.

I would recommend that you not strain over a gnat.

Bobby
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Paul

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2008, 10:38:49 PM »

Oh, I'm not questioning universal reconciliation. Louis Abbott said we don't know of the perfect manuscrpts; but none of them differ in fundamental areas.
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Beloved

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2008, 10:59:49 PM »

We need to get past the vulgar and look at the spiritual.

The prophets were trying their best to warn  their  listnsers, so they used shocking language.

In the ancient Middle East, the ultimate injury to an enemy, after death, was also the execution of "he that pisseth against the wall" which was the idiom for the enemy's male heirs and progeny. Thusly you destroy his name and memory.

This is typical poetical use of language, this idiom is charged emotionally and strikes its target in its most vulnerable place.

Some babyloneons today tare making a big deal about verses to mean that men need to be 'real men' and stand.....again missing the point.

God is telling them and those at the time that those who will not obey God the time His judgement is at hand. Here it is in plain vernacular

beloved
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Paul

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2008, 11:24:32 PM »

But the CLV gets rd of the meaning completely. It doesn't indicate that it means the males. It just says those sitting on the wall. Just wondering why.
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Beloved

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Re: 1 Sa 25:22 in KJV vs. CLV
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2008, 12:21:18 AM »

(1Sa 25:22)  So3541 and more3254 also3541 do6213 God430 unto the enemies341 of David,1732 if518 I leave7604 of all4480, 3605 that834 pertain to him by5704 the morning light1242 any that pisseth8366 against the wall.7023

The translator did not want to offend...

Our job is to read and study....not try to figure out what translators and others are saying.  This is not worth the energy or the time.

Dealing with the language is one thing but no one here can make you see the spiritual...only God will do that.

beloved
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