I was just thinking!

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Everybody

We all say we love God. So I got thinking about this for quite a long time.  "Do we really love God as we say we do?" The easiest thing in the world is to say, "Yes! I do, I love Him more than life itself." But do we really and truly love God? How can we prove that we love Him? Because if we don't then we cannot expect to be admitted into the kingdom of God, that's for sure.

Well God says " If someone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1Jn.4:20). This means that if we don't love our neighbour as much as we love ourselves it proves that we don't love God regardless of what we may say to the contrary.

We can deceive our friends, neighbours and fellow men into believing that we love them but we will never be able to deceive either ourselves or God that we truly love them. So how do we find out whether we are genuinely loving our neighbour the way we are commanded to?

It reminds me of the gardener who pruned his plants regularly and fed them with the best fertilizers but yet the leaves kept withering and dying. Then he realized that the problem lay not with the pruning and fertilizers but with the roots which were diseased. Now the problem was diagnosing the disease. Once that was found the problem was solved.

Now in this spiritual environment we must find the disease that is concealing itself under a blanket of deception. Ray teaches us about a certain enemy within that is enmity with God and he calls it "The beast within." Now we can name quite a few but we need to locate and identify the beast in our opinion that's causing the greatest damage.

I have my opinion of who or what that particular beast is, but I'd like to have the opinion of some other members so as to be able to say in all honesty that we love God, or have we been deceiving ourselves by complacently believing that we do. Now we are at the root of the tree, the pruning and fertilizing must come later when its health is restored. Presently we are pruning which is putting it the wrong way round, more in keeping with what the Babylonians believe, that the spiritual comes before the physical.

God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[EKnight]

I guess you could say "actions speak louder than words".  I sometimes feel that I am using God to help me become a better me.  There are so many things about myself that I hate and so I lean on God to help me change.  I know that the anger in me, the judgmental side of me, the envious side of me etc etc, cannot be changes without God's help.  So, I feel that if I truly loved God more than anything, I would not do things that he does not want me to do.  I love God but if he were THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of my life, I would not have that beast eating away at me.  So I guess he is not the center of my existence yet.  Does this make any sense?

Eileen

[OBrenda]

Funny,
I've been thinking along these lines myself recently.  I may know intellectually what I am suppose to feel, and how a "Loving & God Fearing" person should react.  And most of the time I pull it off.  I heard a Pastor once preach that "Love is a decision...Not a Feeling"....not sure if that is entirely true for me right now!

Has my heart been circumcised, or am I just role playing??   

[Beloved]

Great topic Roy Here are the scriptures where  God tells us how we love Him



(Deu 6:5)  And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(Deu 6:6) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
(Deu 7:9)  Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

(Joh 14:21)  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(Joh 15:12)  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
(Joh 15:13)  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


Love is not a decision that we are capable of . Loving God is impossible unless He works in you. We are incapable of obeying his commandments on our own. He has to give us faith (faith is the ability to die to self and it also is strong confirmation that God himself is Faithful)

We need to stop seeing ourselves as the center the the universe and see only God on the throne. When our eyes have been totally opened then only can we see that he loves all the people he created and then we can begin to love them in the same way.

Before this our love was always conditional. We love our love my parents because they provide for us.  Later we love others for what they give to us. Sometimes the love is stronger than other time but it usually is conditional.

God frees us from this and through chastisement an He works on all those obstacles to love that are in us. Since we are in the flesh still we cannot reach perfection. Our heart and our soul and our strength are weak.

The first three of the ten comamandments deal with our relationship to him and the rest with our relationship to his creation.

He has to work on our selfishness and anger and greed and lust and covetnous etc and burn these out and replace them with mercy patience and kindness and love. It is a very slow and very painful process isn't it.

Every day and in every thing we do it reminds us our weaknesses. With the help of the Holy Spirit we take the first step and repent of our failures, but then we have to wait as he works on us so we can turn the 180 degrees and do the right thing the next time we are presented with the same issue.

beloved

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Roy,

This is a great question and some very good answers as well, the proof certainly would be in the fruits we are displaying and also in the spiritual growth we experience as we journey forward, these things would be evident to ourselves as well as others and I firmly believe we cannot claim a godly love until we manifest the other spiritual gifts too.

Can one claim to love God and man as they gossip and spread malicious rumors? Can anyone truly claim to love God and man as they are impatient with the blind and deaf and lame? Can one really claim to love God and man if they are miserly with their time or money or patient instruction? I really like what Peter wrote in regard to this progression to godly love and charity (agape: a benevolent, affectionate, love feast).

2 Peter 1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Peace,

Joe

[rjsurfs]

I agree Beloved... we are not even able.

From The Lake of Fire Part 15-B (The Myth of Free Will)

   1.  "For from within, out of the HEART of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23).

   2.  The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked [Hebrew: 'exceeding weak'] who can know it" (Jer. 17:9).

   3.  "Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [neither is it ABLE]" (Rom. 8:7).

   4.  "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed [carnal-minded from our birth, as the nation of Israel was] to do evil" (Jer. 13:23).

   5.  "For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

   6.  "In Whom also we have OBTAINED an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).
             There are FIVE "causes" listed in just this one sentence.

   7.  "For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, [this is the cause an force behind our Christian walk. We are 'His workmanship' in action, not some presumed freedom of the will in action] created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

Believing that we can "try real hard" to love God or that anything we do proves our love for God is as fruitless as any other "works" of man... the heart that loves the praise of man over the praise of God.  It is a gift.  We can do nothing.

The very beast is:

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Before we are shown the truth of the seven scriptures above... and until Christ makes us alive... we sit in the temple of God as the beast.

Bobby

[musicman]

When asked this question I answer as honestly as I can.

I try!!

I then admit that my efforts are futile and only God can make this possible.

The fact that I know its futility is the greatest gift that I could have received up til now.

[hillsbororiver]

When asked this question I answer as honestly as I can.

I try!!

I then admit that my efforts are futile and only God can make this possible.

The fact that I know its futility is the greatest gift that I could have received up til now.

Hi musicman,

I wonder how many see what a profound statement that really is, the recognition that we can accomplish nothing good without His Spirit within.

Beautiful.

Joe

[OBrenda]

I know that the Pastor's teaching on...."Love is a decision"  was intended to show that obedience to God's Word is Love whether or not you "Feel" like it.  There is some truth to that, however as it has been so beautifully expresses here..Love isn't created by us....but in us, through God's Will and Purpose!

I desire to be at a place when Love is who I am and how I respond, without the struggle with the beast!  I'm so far from that place...

Roy,...What or who do you think the Beast is?
(I have my opinion of who or what that particular beast is,)

[Roy Monis]

Hi! All you lovely people.

Beautiful answers Beloved, Joe, Bobby Proctor, Musicman, OBenda and EKnight. Thank you all so much. But...But as Ray would say "DO WE LOVE GOD?"

Beloved you are dead right, the first three commandments deal with our relationship with God and the rest to do with our neighbour and I agree no one can love God unless God works in them. I accept that but if we are the called then God is evidently working in us. So that settles those points. Since we claim to be the called we accept that He is doing that. But!....But! As Ray would say "DO WE LOVE GOD?"

Now Bobby Proctor's :
1. "For from within, out of the HEART of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23).
2. "The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked [Hebrew: 'exceeding weak'] who can know it" (Jer. 17:9).
3.  "Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [neither is it ABLE]" (Rom. 8:7).
4.  "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed [carnal-minded from our birth, as the nation of Israel was] to do evil" (Jer. 13:23).
5.  "For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
6.  "In Whom also we have OBTAINED an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).
           There are FIVE "causes" listed in just this one sentence.
7.  "For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, [this is the cause an force behind our Christian walk. We are 'His workmanship' in action, not some presumed freedom of the will in action] created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

All excellent reasons, causes and effects and all undeniably true, Scripture proven. But!....But! As Ray would say "DO WE LOVE GOD?"

Musicman you say you honestly try and I believe you as I do Beloved, Bobby and the rest. The fact that you know it's futility is very near the mark but it's not good enough for the kingdom of God. Sorry! It needs a "Yes or a "No" Luke warm won't do, you know what God does with that. "'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth." (Rev.3:16).
Which leaves the question still wanting. But!....But! As Ray would say " DO WE LOVE GOD?)

Some excellent Scriptures Joe and undeniable and most desirable virtues without which we cannot hope to enter the kingdom, "4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2Pet.1:4-11).
All very sound doctrine which we must follow. But!.....But! As Ray would say "DO WE LOVE GOD?"


Welcome aboard like minded Brenda, but please leave that pastor in his Babylonian roost, forget the mere feeling and with no buts answer "DO WE LOVE GOD?"

Your words Eileen: "I guess you could say 'actions speak louder than words'.  I sometimes feel that I am using God to help me become a better me.  There are so many things about myself that I hate and so I lean on God to help me change.  I know that the anger in me, the judgmental side of me, the envious side of me etc etc, cannot be changes without God's help.  So, I feel that if I truly loved God more than anything, I would not do things that he does not want me to do.  I love God but if he were THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of my life, I would not have that beast eating away at me.  So I guess he is not the center of my existence yet.  Does this make any sense?

Bravo! Eileen, you are the nearest. "Actions speak louder than words." Your phrase and a beautiful one. That beast within, Ray tells us is none other than the "I" in us that is prompting all those sins of anger, judgment envy etc.etc. But!...But! As Ray would say have we taken the trouble to diagnose and expose the deadliest part of that beast within all of us that prevents us from honestly answering the question "DO WE LOVE GOD?" To do this we must act by identifying, exposing and then OVERCOMING him.

So now the next question: Who or what is the name of this horrible beast within us that is enmity to God thereby deceiving us into believing that we truly love God?

I have my opinion and I'd welcome all yours. So far the answers have been terrific all undeniably sound and Scriptural but not quite answering the KEY question "DO WE LOVE GOD?" Prove it by identifying, exposing and OVERCOMING the culprit. Unless we do that it's all from an empty mouth. "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." (1Cor.13:1).

At the present moment our focus is on tending the garden, pruning the trees etc. keeping it nice and trim for God, which I'd like to think is Beloved's first three commandments. But this appears to be to Satan's liking because while we concentrate on that our attention is detracted from the real enemy he has cunningly concealed within each one of us against our neighbour, making our profession of love for God as false as his false doctrine on hell or free will. All this frantic activity; tilling the soil, mixing the best fertilizers, pruning and digging to make the garden flourish but the leaves keep drying up and falling while Satan sits back and laughs  and says "I've got you where I want you."

God bless you brother and sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

[rjsurfs]

Roy,

I don't see where you are going with this...

The answer is no.

Do you keep his commandments?

I could ask if anyone even knows what love is.

Bobby

[EKnight]

1 John 4:8  He that loves not knows not God for God is Love.

1 Cor. 13:18 Love Never Fails.

Isn't the beast the sinner in us?  The enmity that causes us to be of the flesh and not fully spiritual and not fully pleasing to God?

Eileen

[jakfr0s]

 Hi all, is it possible for me to not love God so early in my learnings here? I mean I truly believe in what the Scriptures say, and Mr. Smith makes it so easy to understand sometimes. I say sometimes cause God doesnt let me see it sometimes until later. I really dont think I love God as it commands in His Word, cause I think I love my family more right now, and many other things for that matter. But God showed me that and I asked Jesus to show me how to love Him more, but that His will be done in His perfect time and not mine. I feel so ashamed in that and I wish He could show me faster. I dont even know why Im here writing this, aside from I do know its God's will. I say that because there is so much turmoil in me these days and I sometimes think that it's Jesus burning the evil out of me. Like when I first wake up He is there in my thoughts, not because I want Him there but because He insists on being there. Does that sound crazy? I know sometimes it drives me crazy, but I still try to thank Him.I find myself asking Him for help almost constantly as if by force. Cause it hurts that I  cant do anything of my own. There is so much that needs burning out of me and it seems He is burning some big ones right now and it truly hurts. I want you all to know I come to you all in humbleness and lowliness. What is so awesome about you all is it seems God makes us think the same thing at once. Please pray for His strength on me as I have for you all. Thank you all and thank God.   

[KristaD]

I have only skimmed this thread so forgive me if this is out there and doesn't help anyone but I keep seeing what is love popping up here. Paul tells us that love:
1 Corinthians 13 (Young's Literal Translation)

1If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;

2and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;

3and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.

4The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up,

5doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil,

6rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;

7all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.

This says to me that love is an action as some here have said. Also we know that we cannot do those things without God because those things are not in us but of God as God is love. So from what I see we can only love God by and through God and it is not something that we can strive for or attain on our own. There is a warm fuzzy love emotion, but that is not what matters, we all know how quickly that feeling can go away, He must bring us to a place where we can love Him truly beyond that feeling. It's like a marriage, it starts off with warm feelings of "love" but that can fade and we must LOVE our spouse past those feelings in the way that Paul described. Only with God's help can we truly love God so I don't think it is anything that we need to worry about or condem ourselves for, but yet another thing to  pray that He gives us the ability to love Him. All in His time.

[gmik]

Boy, this is a deep thread for a sunny day!! Lot of meat here and I need to reread (print and muse at my own leisure).  I loved all the answers and the scriptures are well worth re reading.

But since I haven't done all that yet....I would say that I can NOT love God.  Sometimes I don't even think about it or try!  My puny little efforts at loving my neighbor fall pitifully short. Why, I am not even THAT good at loving my family!

It is way too deep- until we see HIM as HE truly IS-when we are like HIM- we then may understand HIS GREAT LOVE for us!!!  We will never come close!

IMHO

[jakfr0s]

  Hi, yes that actually helped me alot KirstaD. It shows me how far I have to go yet. Shows me how  I miss the mark in so many ways. I will study those verses, thank you.

[hillsbororiver]

Hello Folks,

Without going through all the names there is a lot to be gleaned from all those who previously posted, many legitimate thoughts to consider for sure.

One might ask "do you know God? Do you know Him completely? How can you love Him if you really don't know Him?" So my question is do you know God?

I believe we can know His Spirit to a certain degree in the here and now especially when we can see the results of His indwelling Spirit in our own lives, less ego, more patience, less of a willingness to condemn and hold grudges, etc. We are promised "the earnest (down payment) of the Spirit in our hearts" [2Cor 1:22] but we will not have the full inheritance until His return and we "see Him as He is" [1John 3:2].

In my previous post that quoted 2Peter 1:1-11 it is written of a certain progression a believer experiences, if these things are happening in your life you can be sure it is not your doing but it is the Spirit of God working in you, nurturing you, mentoring you, developing the divine nature within you, I believe it is only when this is fully developed can we proclaim without fear of hypocrisy that; YES! I know my God and I love Him more than anything!

Remember Peter's claim before the crucifixion? That he would never forsake Christ? Do you also remember how he denied Him three times "before the cock crowed?" How about after the resurrection when Christ asked not once, not twice but three times "Peter dost thou love me?" Peter was grieved when he was asked this question three times, of course he was vividly reminded of his own failure and his own presumptuousness. What was Christ's last words to Peter during this episode? "Feed my sheep."

Being a living example and answering when someone asks the reason for your contentment is feeding the sheep, keeping His commands and displaying His love. 

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[OBrenda]

Well Roy,

IMHO...The beast within me is what I also understand as the Ego/Carnial Mind.  Which calls itself "I".  It sees itself as separate from others, where comes forth pride and judgement and loneliness.  It identifies itself with physical things, which produces Lust and Greed. (What car I drive, what I do for Work, What Church I go to)  When the scriptures tell us WE are "ONE" body....with many parts...."ONE" tree with many Limbs. 

So the one that says "I" in me is the beast. 

So No "I" do not Love GOD!

But greater is he that is in me, than he that is in the World (Satan)
But the creation and workmanship that is HIM that works in me, Loves God Dearly!

[Roy Monis]

Roy,

I don't see where you are going with this...

The answer is no.

Do you keep his commandments?

I could ask if anyone even knows what love is.

Bobby

Dear Bobby

All I can say to that is please read my posting carefully. I never asked why, where, when or how we should love God, everyone answered those questions with Scriptural proof correctly including yourself. The question was " DO YOU LOVE GOD?"

Then you go on to say, " I could ask if anyone even knows what love is."

If you mean the carnal version of love "Erotica" I'd say yes virtually everyone would be well acquainted with it but if you mean Godly love "Agape" I'd have to say "NO" virtually no one including myself knows the first thing about it. This is the challenge that Deb/Arcturus is confronted with at this moment in time.

What is Godly Love in the first place;   " If I speak with the tongues of men and of angel, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogantt, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things,believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails ; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13).

This is "Agape" love. Do you have this kind of love with all the required qualities highlighted? If you do, then your answer to "DO YOU LOVE GOD?" is YES, if not it is no different to mine which is NO.

The reason for this is that Satan has deceived us into a complacency of believing that we love God when in reality he has put a thorn in our side in the form of the beast within that preys on the love for our neighbour.

Now do you follow what I'm about? We have to identify, locate and OVERCOME this beast that is keeping us from loving God in TRUTH not just in words. This is our purpose in life, this is the main theme of Ray's teachings, OVERCOMING constantly repeated to the 7 Churches in Asia. (Rev.2:7,11,17,21) (Rev,3:5,12.21).     

Now don't tell me you're situated in America, Canada, South Africa, Europe or Australia and not in Asia so it doesn't apply to you, or I won't believe you.

There is a reason for this brother so don't just dismiss it off hand because you can't see where it's leading or understand it, that is not wise. I've learned an enormous amount from Ray's teachings and this forum and it is my wish to input as much insight as I possibly can for the benefit of all, including you if you're prepared to give it a fair try. I'm no teacher and I'm not trying to teach anyone, just sharing what I believe the Spirit is saying to me. If you can't see it.....Well with your attitude toward it regrettably you won't see it.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[rjsurfs]

Roy,

You said:

Well with your attitude toward it regrettably you won't see it.

I can tell you assuredly you do not know my attitude... and not following your train of thought shouldn't mean that I have one. 

Ray has a great study on The Myth of free will and the beast... is this new material you are presenting?

And yes, the love chapter describes some qualities of love... and Love also creates darkness, Love creates evil, and Love created the waster to destroy the flesh.

Bobby