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Author Topic: Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?  (Read 12382 times)

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orion77

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2006, 12:11:20 AM »

The life is in the blood.  The blood of the lamb, who takes away the sins of the world.  The shedding of blood is what paid for our sins.  The human at conception is kept alive and born by the blood of the mother and the seed of the father.  

In the same way Jesus came first, before the creation, so the fetus relies on the blood before birth, before the breath of life enters the baby.  As in the natural so is the spiritual.  

Spiritually speaking, it is the same for us while alive.  While carnal we rely on our mother the church, until born again, this time with the Holy Spirit (wind) or breath.  Then as we mature we come out of her and move on to the spiritual things of God.

God bless,

Gary
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chrissiela

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2006, 12:53:14 AM »

Quote from: orion77
The life is in the blood.  


YES!!!  :D  I see it that way to.... seeing the physical verses the spiritual. In that 'death' came through one man (the FIRST Adam) and life came through ONE (the SECOND Adam, a life-giving spirit).

Through the first Adam we partake of his 'blood'... in a physical, corruptible sense.... DYING from the day that we are 'born' (even conceived).

Through the second Adam we partake if His BLOOD, SPIRITUALLY, pure and incorruptible and LIFE-giving....

    Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:55  For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Joh 6:56  He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.[/list:u]

God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul.... body + spirit = soul.... and we through Adam (and Eve)... yet we have NO LIFE in us...  :cry:  for the flesh profits NOTHING.

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So cool!!  8)

Chrissie
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Daniel

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2006, 01:11:13 AM »

I love this place!!! :D  Chrissiela that was great praise God for you!

I liked the way you showed that.

Daniel
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eutychus

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2006, 09:17:37 AM »

Quote from: orion77
The life is in the blood.  The blood of the lamb, who takes away the sins of the world.  The shedding of blood is what paid for our sins.  The human at conception is kept alive and born by the blood of the mother and the seed of the father.  

In the same way Jesus came first, before the creation, so the fetus relies on the blood before birth, before the breath of life enters the baby.  As in the natural so is the spiritual.  

Spiritually speaking, it is the same for us while alive.  While carnal we rely on our mother the church, until born again, this time with the Holy Spirit (wind) or breath.  Then as we mature we come out of her and move on to the spiritual things of God.

God bless,

Gary




 very good :idea:
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Lightseeker

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2006, 05:55:54 PM »

M_oliver

Like you, I too question Strong's definitons.  They did not satisfy years of study concerning man being a spirit and body.  I have asked for an explanation of the following verse several times with no one coming up to the plate with an answer.

 
1Thess 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless....

Now I'm going to add two more.  Mary the mother of Jesus separates spirit and soul:
Luke 1:46  And Mary said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior.

The writer of Hebrews distinguishes three parts.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts right?).

I now have more than the first unanswered verse begging for explanation.  So once again I'll ask for some one to give me a good explanation for man being biparte instead of triparte.  And another misinterpretation IMO :wink:   from Genesis and Strong's isn't what I'm looking for.  I've known about both of them for a long long time.  Please give honest and sincere dialogue.
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Daniel

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2006, 06:26:35 PM »

Chrissie brought up an excellent point. Unless we drink His blood (Spiritual) we have no "life" in us who are living souls (as Adam was) as the Lord said right?

Daniel
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chrissiela

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2006, 06:36:10 PM »

Quote from: lightseeker
Please give honest and sincere dialogue.



Any reason to believe that the dialogue here is not honest and/or sincere??   :shock:  

Maybe I missed it, but did someone say that there is not a body, a spirit and a soul?

All ‘three’ are mentioned in the scriptures.

The body is not the spirit, neither is it the soul…. and vise versa (as applicable to each).

But ONE (the soul) is a 'combination' of the other two.... all resulting in ONE
‘whole’ (person).

The same can be said for the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit/Ghost, couldn’t it?

All ‘three’ are mentioned in the scriptures.

Yet, the Holy Spirit does not exist independent of the Father and the Son but is, in essence, a 'combination' of the Father and the Son.... who are ONE 'whole' (God).


Maybe I am not understanding your question or the reason for the references that you gave??

Chrissie
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hillsbororiver

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2006, 07:01:15 PM »

Lightseeker, I had asked you before whether you have read any material on this Bible Truths, you told me you had. So I can only guess you missed this one; http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

It is right on top of Ray's page, here is a portion of it;

DR. STRONG’S USE OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES

I personally use Dr. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. It is a most helpful book. However, when it comes to the major "damnable heresies" of Christendom, Dr. Strong plays the same game of contradictions and square circles, as do the pastors and theologians.

Next, let’s study Strong’s definition of soul in the Hebrew and soul in the Greek:

In the Hebrew Scriptures, soul is translated from, H5315 nephesh = neh'-fesh

From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Say, did you catch that one word Dr. Strong used to define the soul—nephesh?

He used as a definition of "soul," the word "MORTALITY." How pray tell, can pastors, teachers, and theologians tell us that man’s soul is IMMORTAL, when the very definition of "soul—nephesh" is "MORTAL." Yes, of course, Godly men inspired by God’s Holy Spirit have always known that man is "mortal"—"Shall MORTAL man be more just than God…" (Job 4:17).

And so, what kind of a "living soul" did Adam become? Why a "living [mortal] soul," of course. Maybe that’s why Jesus also stated that "souls" can be "destroyed." We cannot separate the man from his soul in two different parts, as though the soul were something that existed independently of the body. For this reason, when the Bible speaks of "people" dying or being destroyed, it sometimes refers to them as "souls," for the soul is the person. Adam himself was the "living soul." (See: Joshua 10:28,35,37,39).

In the Greek Scriptures, soul is translated from, G5590 psuche¯ = psoo-khay'

"From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you."0

Next notice this statement in Strong’s definition of psuche above: "G4151, which is the rational and IMMORTAL SOUL." Oh really? Just like that? Noticed how casually Dr. Strong just dropped that little gem into his definition of soul. First he confirms the fact that the soul of man is MORTAL, but then quickly asserts that there is, however, another, different Greek word, which really does mean immortal soul, and it is the Greek word # 4151—pnuma.

Even though Dr. Strong knew the Hebrew word nephesh meant "mortal," and not "immortal" he nonetheless must be quick to inform us of his own personal heresy, and tell us that although the nephesh/soul of man is mortal, nevertheless man also possesses an "immortal" soul. And in so doing, we must conclude that that (‘mortal’ Job 4:17) man possesses two souls: one mortal and one immortal. Do Christians ever think about all these unscriptural heresies? Of course not. As we learned in the Army—"Ours is not to reason why; ours is but to do or die."

So the Greek word #4151 = pnuma, is the "immortal soul?" I would have never guessed: I always thought pnuma meant "spirit." You all know, I hope, that in the King James Version, the words "spirit" and "ghost" are translated from the exact same Greek word "pnuma," don’t you? Well, now you do.

Now, get this: pnuma is used in the Greek Scriptures approximately 360 times. And Dr. Strong tells us that this word pnuma IS the word for "immortal soul." So just how many times do you think this word is translated "immortal soul" out of the 360 verses which contain the Greek word pnuma?" Oh, go ahead—guess? Three hundred? Two hundred? Fifty? Ten? Three? One? Would you believe not even once? What about the "soul" by itself. How many times is pneuma translated "soul?" Three hundred? Two hundred? Fifty? Ten? Three? One? Would you believe none?

That’s right, none. Not once is this word pnuma, which Dr. Strong tells us is the proper word for "immortal soul," actually translated "immortal soul." It is always translated "spirit" [sometimes, ‘ghost’], but never "immortal soul." Nor is it even translated "soul" even without the prefix, "immortal."

No one here believes Strong (or even any translation is perfect) that is why we are admonished to compare spiritual to spiritual and to gather at least 2 witnesses.


Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2006, 07:13:18 PM »

Lightseeker,

Here is more reading for you given in the spirit of honest and sincere dialogue.
 
Spiritual Meaning Of Key Words In Scripture;

Soul

The attachment God has with each individual person is his creation. The soul is not alive without a body, be it a physical body at creation and conception: "He formed man of the dust of the ground and He breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7), or a spiritual body at the resurrection: It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body (I Cor. 15:44). A dead body is not a conscious body (Ecc. 3:18-20) but is "asleep in Christ" or not in Christ but asleep (I Cor. 15:18). But God does not forget "the work of His hands" (Job 14:15) and refers to the soul as His 'darling' in Psa. 22:20 and 35:17. The soul is Gods knowledge of who we are dead or alive.



Psa 104:29  Thou hidest thy face they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecc 3:19  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

 http://www.*not-allowed*.com/spiritdie.php

 http://www.*not-allowed*.com/soultruth.php

 Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2006, 07:32:00 PM »

Quote from: Lightseeker
Good imput guys.  Verses I've never been taught or thought of before concerning this subject.


Then you write? I now have more than the first unanswered verse begging for explanation. So once again I'll ask for some one to give me a good explanation for man being biparte instead of triparte. And another misinterpretation IMO  from Genesis and Strong's isn't what I'm looking for. I've known about both of them for a long long time. Please give honest and sincere dialogue.

Lightseeker, both of these quotes are yours, in the same thread, what is up Brother?

Joe
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Daniel

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2006, 07:44:59 PM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver
Lightseeker,

Here is more reading for you given in the spirit of honest and sincere dialogue.


Psa 104:29  Thou hidest thy face they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecc 3:19  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

 http://www.*not-allowed*.com/spiritdie.php

 http://www.*not-allowed*.com/soultruth.php

 Joe



hillsbororiver,

Thank you so much for posting this, I havent read these yet. I was reading the verses you just posted. The thought came to me, of one breath? I know Paul quoted an Athens poet saying "in Him we live more and have our being" both man and beast have no preeminence over the other. What I was wondering is, isn't the spirit of a man (or beast) different from the Spirit of God in Christ? Like a "second wind" :lol:  if you'll allow that pun? I thought that was cute  :D

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Then it speaks of us being given the Spirit which is from God, called the mind of Christ right?

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

That means only the spiritual man can receive the things of the spirit of God. Is that here or when we physically die? Is this speaking more of being in the flesh after a spiritual truth then a physical one?

Roman 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If the Sword of the Spirit is the word of God divides the soul and spirit, which spirit does it cut through? Wouldn't it be our own? We would then be joined to His Spirit, and Gods Spirit in us dies too, am I getting the swing of things here? :lol:

I will go look at those links you provided thank you, these are just what I was looking for :D

Daniel
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hillsbororiver

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2006, 08:08:51 PM »

Daniel, being in the Spirit of Christ makes you a new creation!

The following is from Ray's Lake of Fire Part IX;

TO BE "IN CHRIST" IS SALVATION

What does it mean to be "IN Christ" seeing that ALL IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL BE "IN Christ?"

"Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, ALL things are become new."

How many will be reconciled "IN Christ?"

"To wit, that God was IN Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TREPASSES UNTO THEM…" (II Cor. 5:17 & 19).

Of course, how could it be otherwise? Jesus doesn’t make just "some" new creatures from the old, no, He makes "ALL THINGS … NEW." And we all know this verse:

"There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are IN Christ Jesus…"

How many will be IN Christ? We read it: "ALL." There is coming the time when there will be no more condemnation IN ANYONE ANYWHERE! Praise God and BELIEVE

 
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

There is much meat in these articles,

Joe
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Daniel

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2006, 08:27:33 PM »

Thank you hillsbororiver, you even made a bit more sense of M_Oliver's thoughts I believe.

One is "the creature" and the other a "new creature".

"The creature" is subject to vanity (or corruption) and the other (new creature) liberated in Christ who is not corruptible? To be clothed in Christ?

spirit of man verses Spirit of God, the natural man cannot receive?

I need more spirit studies

Daniel
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gmik

  • Guest
soul & spirit
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2006, 08:28:16 PM »

Hi.  I have read this entire thread several times.  M. Oliver asks a question.  We got off on tangents with babies and then M.Oliver asks again why don't we see it.  Here is what I don't see.  If Genesis is  really meaning "alive breathing" not "living soul" What does that ultimately mean?  M. Oliver I don't know the point but would like to know where you are headed.  Others of you I don't understand getting upset or personal. I don't want this to get locked before I see what would be the big difference between alive breathing and soul. I am sincere.  M. Oliver your first post was happy and your last post seemed exasperated. Shouldn't we leave Strong's alone and go to the interlinear or e sword?
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hillsbororiver

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2006, 08:30:17 PM »

Quote from: M_Oliver
Not one of you is understanding my point at all.  I am truly puzzled as to why I can see this as clear as day while even Ray blows right by it.

Thank you Joe for posting some of Ray's material so I can demonstrate.  Do not mistake.  I respect Ray greatly.  God has used him to show me much.  I am not picking a fight with him or anyone here.  I am trying to shine some light on this lie.

From "DR. STRONG'S USE OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES"

QUOTE: "In the Hebrew Scriptures, soul is translated from, H5315 nephesh = neh'-fesh

From H5314; properly a breathing creature"

If "nephesh" PROPERLY MEANS a breathing creature WHERE do you get "SOUL" from?  Do not dare tell me to ADD the breath of life + the body to = soul or some other stupid equation unless you can prove it with scripture.  I'll tell you right now you cannot unless you 'ADD TO THE BOOK.'

QUOTE: "Say, did you catch that one word Dr. Strong used to define the soul—nephesh?"

Yes I did.  If it PROPERLY MEANS a breathing creature WHY is it translated soul?  WHY?

QUOTE: "And so, what kind of a "living soul" did Adam become?"

He DIDN'T become a "living soul".  He became ALIVE[chay-2416] BREATHING[nephesh-5315] OR He became ALIVE, a BREATHING CREATURE.  Either translation is much more accurate than "soul".  Soul is not in the Hebrew!

Is that so hard to understand?  The Hebrew DOES NOT say that Adam became a "living soul".  Am I really the only one here who can see this?


M, let me paraphrase what you are saying, "soul" has no root in Hebrew or Greek.

Agreed, it's root is Old English "sawol" similar to the Old High Greman "seula"

defined as: an actuating cause of an individual life

No argument.

Joe
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Daniel

  • Guest
Re: soul & spirit
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2006, 08:36:36 PM »

Quote from: gmik
Hi.  I have read this entire thread several times.  M. Oliver asks a question.  We got off on tangents with babies and then M.Oliver asks again why don't we see it.  Here is what I don't see.  If Genesis is  really meaning "alive breathing" not "living soul" What does that ultimately mean?  M. Oliver I don't know the point but would like to know where you are headed.  Others of you I don't understand getting upset or personal. I don't want this to get locked before I see what would be the big difference between alive breathing and soul. I am sincere.  M. Oliver your first post was happy and your last post seemed exasperated. Shouldn't we leave Strong's alone and go to the interlinear or e sword?


Excellent point gmik :shock:  Is this speaking of spiritual truths between both the creature and the new creature or physical truths? Obviously the dead can burry the dead, and the dead were physically alive.

Gmik do you have a link to those reccomendations of yours?

Thanks

Daniel
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hillsbororiver

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2006, 08:40:15 PM »

Quote from: Daniel
Thank you hillsbororiver, you even made a bit more sense of M_Oliver's thoughts I believe.

One is "the creature" and the other a "new creature".

"The creature" is subject to vanity (or corruption) and the other (new creature) liberated in Christ who is not corruptible? To be clothed in Christ?

spirit of man verses Spirit of God, the natural man cannot receive?

I need more spirit studies

Daniel


You are very welcome Daniel. If I can be of any help just ask and I will at least give an honest effort.

Gena, I admit to being thick at times and my wife would concur to that as well, I did not get what M Oliver's point was at first, he is right the word soul has neither a Hebrew or Greek root or Latin either for that matter, it has Middle Ages English as it's grandaddy.

Joe
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chrissiela

  • Guest
Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2006, 08:47:31 PM »

Quote from: M_Oliver
Not one of you is understanding my point at all.  I am truly puzzled as to why I can see this as clear as day while even Ray blows right by it.

Thank you Joe for posting some of Ray's material so I can demonstrate.  Do not mistake.  I respect Ray greatly.  God has used him to show me much.  I am not picking a fight with him or anyone here.  I am trying to shine some light on this lie.

From "DR. STRONG'S USE OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES"

QUOTE: "In the Hebrew Scriptures, soul is translated from, H5315 nephesh = neh'-fesh

From H5314; properly a breathing creature"

If "nephesh" PROPERLY MEANS a breathing creature WHERE do you get "SOUL" from?  Do not dare tell me to ADD the breath of life + the body to = soul or some other stupid equation unless you can prove it with scripture.  I'll tell you right now you cannot unless you 'ADD TO THE BOOK.'

QUOTE: "Say, did you catch that one word Dr. Strong used to define the soul—nephesh?"

Yes I did.  If it PROPERLY MEANS a breathing creature WHY is it translated soul?  WHY?

QUOTE: "And so, what kind of a "living soul" did Adam become?"

He DIDN'T become a "living soul".  He became ALIVE[chay-2416] BREATHING[nephesh-5315] OR He became ALIVE, a BREATHING CREATURE.  Either translation is much more accurate than "soul".  Soul is not in the Hebrew!
Is that so hard to understand?  The Hebrew DOES NOT say that Adam became a "living soul".  Am I really the only one here who can see this?


I see your point, but I don't see the problem??

"Soul" is not in the Hebrew?

Neither are any of the other English words in the English translations of the scriptures.... the Greek and Hebrew words are translated into English (and any of a number of other languages).

If the English word "soul" means "a breathing creature" and the Hebrew word nephesh means "a breathing creature".... then what is the problem exactly?

From webster.com

Main Entry: 1soul
Pronunciation: 'sOl
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soule, from Old English sAwol; akin to Old High German sEula soul
1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2 a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe b capitalized, Christian Science : GOD 1b
3 : a person's total self
4 a : an active or essential part b : a moving spirit : LEADER
5 a : the moral and emotional nature of human beings b : the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment c : spiritual or moral force : FERVOR
6 : PERSON
7 : EXEMPLIFICATION, PERSONIFICATION <she is the soul of integrity>
8 a : a strong positive feeling (as of intense sensitivity and emotional fervor) conveyed especially by black American performers b : NEGRITUDE c : SOUL MUSIC d : SOUL FOOD e : SOUL BROTHER

It doesn't exactly define it in English as "a breathing creature" but it certainly defines it as the person as a whole (which would certainly include a body and a spirit, would it not?) and that which 'animates' or gives 'force' to us.

So seeing that the body and the spirit together creates "a breathing creature" (termed, in english, as a "soul"). So I am just not seeing what the problem is???

Are you saying that the terms soul and spirit are interchangeable? Is the problem what you said about the "soul" being a term derived from "Egyptian paganism" or something?

Call me dumb...  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  but I, for one, am still not understanding what you are asking or what the problem is.... even though I do believe that I understand your point. But maybe I am just fooling myself on that one, too.   :oops:   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Chrissie
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gmik

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why soul and spirit
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2006, 08:49:58 PM »

Daniel. Maybe someone else will give you the links.  But I think you can just type in e-sword and download it and then do  interlinear scripture analyzer.  They are on my desktop so when I open them I don't see an address.

Joe.  I have read most of your posts and know for sure you are NOT thick headed! :D
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chrissiela

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Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2006, 09:06:14 PM »

Sorry... I 'overposted' about 7 posts there  :oops: ..... but I still do not see the "lie".  :cry:

Chrissie
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