Why "Soul" and "Spirit"?

[hillsbororiver]

If someone here is monitoring this and thinks it should be locked, I'll be first to say you are wrong.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me


I am a moderator, and as long as it remains civil it won't be locked or deleted.

Joe

[Daniel]

The carnal mind is death and the Spiritual mind is life.

One is terrestrial and the other cellestrial or earthly verses heavenly right?

Are you saying God is not Spirit? Or that Spirit does not exist?

Not sure what your getting at M_Oliver

To anyone, this verse? Know what the word soul here (in reference to God) means? Whats the correct word? Anyone knoow?

Isaiah 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: :?:  they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].

Thanks

Daniel

[hillsbororiver]

M Oliver, you are getting over the top now, no one called you a liar, those are your words.

Please get your emotions under control when posting, no one is promoting paganism and your accusational, angry posts are not edifying and wearing thin.

Thanks,

Joe

[Daniel]

M Oliver, you are getting over the top now, no one called you a liar, those are your words.

Please get your emotions under control when posting, no one is promoting paganism and your accusational, angry posts are not edifying and wearing thin.

Thanks,

Joe

Amen hillsbororiver  No ones being hateful here. Thats more the definition of a liar. Someone who "says" they love God but hates their brother that is a liar. Its not good to become hateful

Daniel

[SteveB]

edit

[hillsbororiver]

Prove "SOUL".  Prove "SPIRIT".  If you can with Scripture, I am the the liar.

No one accused you of being a liar, even if your point is refuted, we all are capable of being wrong. Yourself included.

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Your word was liar, no one else used it, can't you read your own quote?

I said anyone is capable of being wrong. No one man has all the knowledge or understanding, being wrong does not make one a liar. My friend it was you that brought in that word. Please make your point and stop with the pagan accusations, no one here is promoting paganism.

What is your opinion of these words which also have no Hebrew or Greek as their root word?

Elect

Main Entry: 1elect
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: i-'lekt
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin electus, past participle of eligere to select, from e- + legere to choose -- more at LEGEND
1 : carefully selected : CHOSEN
2 : chosen for salvation through divine mercy
3 a : chosen for office or position but not yet installed <the president-elect> b : chosen for marriage at some future time

Believe

Main Entry: be·lieve
Function: verb
Pronunciation: b&-'lev
Inflected Form(s): be·lieved ; be·liev·ing
Etymology: Middle English beleven, from Old English belefan, from be- + lyfan, lefan to allow, believe; akin to Old High German gilouben to believe, Old English leof dear -- more at LOVE
intransitive senses
1 a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in> <believes in ghosts>
2 : to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something <believe in exercise>
3 : to hold an opinion : THINK <I believe so>
transitive senses
1 a : to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took> b : to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>
2 : to hold as an opinion : SUPPOSE <I believe it will rain soon>
- be·liev·er noun
- not believe : to be astounded at <I couldn't believe my luck>

Breath

Main Entry: breath
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'breth
Etymology: Middle English breth, from Old English br[AE]th; akin to Old High German brAdam breath, and perhaps to Old English beorma yeast -- more at BARM
1 a : air filled with a fragrance or odor b : a slight indication : SUGGESTION <the faintest breath of scandal>
2 a : the faculty of breathing <recovering his breath after the race> b : an act of breathing <fought to the last breath> c : opportunity or time to breathe : RESPITE
3 : a slight breeze
4 a : air inhaled and exhaled in breathing <bad breath> b : something (as moisture on a cold surface) produced by breath or breathing c : INHALATION
5 : a spoken sound : UTTERANCE
6 : SPIRIT , ANIMATION
- in one breath or in the same breath : almost simultaneously
- out of breath : breathing very rapidly (as from strenuous exercise)

[chrissiela]

Sorry... I 'overposted' about 7 posts there  :oops: ..... but I still do not see the "lie".  :cry:

Chrissie

Prove "SOUL".  Prove "SPIRIT".  If you can with Scripture, I am the the liar.  Until then, "soul" and "spirit" are the liar and OF the church.

I never said that you were wrong; I said that I didn't see the problem.


If nephesh mean a "breathing creature" and I understand that the word SOUL means, in essence, a "breathing creature"... what do I have to PROVE?

I can certainly prove that those are the words that are found in the english translation of the scriptures..... and in my opinion the meaning of the words are very similar in meaning/definition, even if not the 'best' translation.

How does changing "soul" to "breathing creature" change the meaning?  What shall we use for "spirit"? Wind? Breath?

These are WORDS.

Do I need to go through my scriptures and cross out all the words "soul" and write in "breathing creature" so that my translation will be 'more accurate'? Even though I know/understand that the word SOUL refers to a BREATHING CREATURE?

If the beast is the flesh and the flesh is the carnal mind WHY is not the opposite simply non-carnal or ethereal?  Why must one abide in Egypt.

We are talking about WORDS?? How is using the words that are actually found in the scriptures (as translated) abiding in Egypt??

For instance, if I used the word "trinity" as part of my vocabulary or in my definitions/explanations about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, even though that word is nowhere found in the scriptures, then I could see a much more serious problem.... but we are talking about words that are actually found in the scriptures - as english translations of Hebrew (or Greek) words.

We can look at the Hebrew/Greek words in scriptures and make determinations about what the words mean, how they are used, etc, without physically changing them or re-writing the scriptures that we have.

Is that not part of studying to show yourself approved?

If we start changing the 'terminology' that is known and understood by most Christians who are already familiar with the scriptures, what good does that do? then you simply distance yourself even further and much more time and effort is involved in 'explaining' yourself and your beliefs to others.

If you submit to "soul" and "spirit" you are a promoter of all the paganism that the blind church too supports.  Where am I wrong?

I don't see how I am submitting to anything by using the words that are provided, as they are, in the scriptures..... there are many words that could be translated "better". But I don't see that as a requirement to go out and rewrite the scriptures to correct every erroneous word/translation. What and who would that benefit? Why isn't it enough to know and understand where the words come from and what they mean as a part of your study?

I can get "to the bottom of it" by studying the words that are there - to learn from where they are derived and what they mean; how they are used, etc, without actually 'changing' them.

They are the words that most are FAMILIAR with and I just don't see how changing my terminolgy from something that is familiar to something that is unfamiliar (but has the same or very similar meaning) in beneficial. Then I would have to go about changing the terminolgy of everyone else who reads and studies the scriptures if I want them to understand what I am saying or referring to.

I could see if the translated word was completely erroneous or just plain wrong.... like translating 'lâbân  lâbên' (white) as "black" or "house" or something.... just not seeing the problem with words like "soul" and "spirit". Seems to me that there are bigger fish to fry??

Chrissie

[Craig]

M_Oliver,

Calm down NOW.  

You asked a good question.  The group is responding, some are thinking out loud.  

Joe is not setting a trap, so that is not the way it works.  And no one is hanging you out to dry.  You need to take a chill pill.

I personally would like to see this thread play itself out, but......if we can't keep this discussion civil I will lock this thread.  

Remember, don't try to read more into a post than the writer intended.  It is easy to do and feathers tend to get ruffled when it happens.

As for now I am locking this thread until tomorrow, so lets take a deep breath and consider our posts wisely.

Craig

[Craig]

This thread is open again.  Be civil and agree to disagree if it comes to that.  

Craig

[chrissiela]

The salvation of our soul isn't a all or nothing salvation IMO.  It is a salvation from one degree to the next.  And that INCHRISTING of our soul is what transforms our flesh loving 'dying soul' into a Christ's life/quickening spirit 'living soul'.

Thoughts?

I can second that!!  :wink:

2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Chrissie

[hillsbororiver]

M_oliver

Like you, I too question Strong's definitons.  They did not satisfy years of study concerning man being a spirit and body.  I have asked for an explanation of the following verse several times with no one coming up to the plate with an answer.


1Thess 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless....

Now I'm going to add two more.  Mary the mother of Jesus separates spirit and soul:
Luke 1:46  And Mary said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior.

The writer of Hebrews distinguishes three parts.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts right?).

I now have more than the first unanswered verse begging for explanation.  So once again I'll ask for some one to give me a good explanation for man being biparte instead of triparte.  And another misinterpretation IMO :wink:   from Genesis and Strong's isn't what I'm looking for.  I've known about both of them for a long long time.  Please give honest and sincere dialogue.

Dee, a few of us went through this a few weeks ago, let me try again.

First off, you think it is impossible that the prejudice of the translators may have a role in the order of these words; spirit, soul & body? If it was originally written soul, body & spirit would it not have a different connotation? Much like it is written in Genesis, Psalms, Job, etc. that the spirit & body constitute "soul"?


Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Psa 104:29  Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 14:10  But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

No mention of a 3rd part of the equation;

Take one page out of a book, the page is comprised of paper and ink, is it one page made out of two componants, or is the page three seperate things? Now I do not have a two edged sword that could split the ink off of the page, but if I had a laser that could seperate ink from paper would that prove the page was three componants and not two?

ink + paper = page

body + spirit = soul

Dee, please give us 2 witnesses to this body + soul + spirit = man

Joe

[mannonthecross]

which is a salvation subsequent to our "To be in Christ is Salvation"  which Joe mentioned.

It is a salvation from one degree to the next.  And that INCHRISTING of our soul is what transforms our flesh loving 'dying soul' into a Christ's life/quickening spirit 'living soul'.

Thoughts?[/quote]

Lightseeker,
Need some clarification, please.

"...which is a salvation subsequent...." By this do you mean "walking out" our salvation?

"It is a salvation from one degree to the next."  Crucifying the flesh?

"...transforms our flesh loving 'dying soul' into a Christ's life/quickening spirit 'living soul'."   This is not clear as to when you believe this takes place. Are you implying an immortal soul?

I agree with Chrissie "...are changed into the same image from glory to glory...", but is that all you're saying here?

Thanx,
Tom

[Daniel]

Hi lightseeker,

Thanks for sharing, how do you see these, I am curious

Luke 29:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.[/u]

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.[/u]

1Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.[/u]


1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(you had already quoted that one) But this one in particular

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.[/u]


Daniel

[hillsbororiver]

Dee, let's agree to disagree, you and I are way apart on this and I can see you are not absorbing the point at all.

There is no eternal man spirit, the spirit that gave the body of Adam (and us) life is the breath of life from the Spirit of God.

You totally ignored my analogy about the two edged sword and how that verse gave an example of how sharp the edge was and not that there are 3 parts to mankind, we are the same as the beasts.

Ecc 3:19  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Your second witness to your theory has nothing to do with a 3 part man but everything to do with the sharp edge of His Word.

You never answered my question about the ink, paper, page.

There is no purpose in continuing this, perhaps you might take the time in actually reading the materials on Bible Truths rather than glossing over the titles saying you already know everything.

How can you possibly judge these articles by their title? If a book was entitled "Science" would you claim to know all the contents without reading it?  This will be my last post on this thread.

Dee, if you ever take the time to read the material I will be happy to discuss any of it with you, but at this time we are simply too far apart to communicate effectively. You are speaking Russian and I am speaking Chinese.

Peace,

Joe

[Daniel]

I'm still studying these things. I might need help if anyone can help me. I found the following.

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Is this correct, the word breathed here is found in only two places?

1) to blow or breathe upon

Which states

This word used only once by the LXX translators in Gen 2:7 where God breathed on Adam and he became a living soul.

Just as the original creation was completed by an act of God, so to the new creation was completed by an act from the Head of the new creation.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Is this corrrect that these both are the only place that this particular word is found? I can see the correlation between the two.

:lol: Joe its comical that we can all speak from scripture and not hear one another at times and at other times can hear each other. Each one doing their best to try to understand whats written.

Daniel

[Daniel]

Joe,

You quoted

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

I see this exactly as you wrotte it, I agree. I'm thinking if Adam as the beasts and us all share in the natural man one breath and the sustaining of the naturral man is counted as one breath, then the breath Jesus breathed into them was like a second breath in the above?

Reason I ask is because the first breath or pattern is seen as that which sustains the natural man to live in the body as Ray teaches, is this ccorrect? But if the same word is found in relation to Christ breathing on His disciples corresponds to the first, then the fllesh counts for nothing in regards to the first breath of the flesh right? :?

If not, then already living souls (the disciples, the creatures) received another breath by Christ Himself (to become to new creatures) how would this be counted? See what I am asking?


Daniel

[Lightseeker]

Daniel,

Wow quick response, are you sure you read thoroughly?  I've been busy all morning trying to put that last one together while still seeing patients.

All the scriptures you quote are the very same kind which have me here seeking other opinions .  I am curious as to the response from others here would be to those scriptures based on man being a spirit, body only.

GEN 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life/Chay also...

This is were M_olivers view caught my interest.  Where the physical trees for physical food to sustain the temporal life until man breaths his last?  But the tree of chay/life is aonian life, or life unto the end of the age?

Thanks for sharing, how do you see these, I am curious

Luke 29:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

The soul isn't totally saved/renewed by saying "Yes to Jesus at the alter."

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

This speaks of the backsliding, or not backsliding, salvation of our soul.

1Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

I believe that speaks of someone having the complete mind of Christ by putting on the fullness of the stature of the image of Christ.

1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved/tereo blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(you had already quoted that one) But this one in particular

5083 tereo: to guard (from loss or injury, prop. by keeping the eye upon); by impl. to detain (in custody; fig. to maintain); by extens. to withhold (for personal ends;

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I'll answer my view of this one with a verse.
ROM 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed/metamorphoo by the renewing of your mind,

3339 metamorphoo: to transform (lit. or fig. "metamorphose")

This word metamorphoo is only in the NT 4 times.  Two times were the transfiguration of Jesus on the mount, once when Moses face glowed requiring a veil, and here in Romans which is a call to us.

[Daniel]

Thank you answering my post Lightseeker

I've got A.D.D. sorry :lol:

Daniel

[chrissiela]

Daniel,

I'm not sure I understand the question.

We were given life (in the flesh) by God in the beginning (God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. Right?

But that 'life' that we were given is actually NO LIFE at all. We only have LIFE through Christ..... we have to be "born again".... this would be the recieving of the Holy Spirit (signified by Jesus breathing on His disciples). In essence, BOTH "breaths" coming from God... but the 'second coming'  :lol:  :lol:  (just thought of that... hehe) is a 're-birth'  :?: ... creating a 'new' creature  :!: (born AGAIN)...



Chrissie