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Author Topic: “In”…, or, …..”with”..?  (Read 2354 times)

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Amrhrasach

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“In”…, or, …..”with”..?
« on: July 18, 2008, 07:53:48 PM »

As usual when reading something for the 2nd time (3rd, 4th, etc) undoubtedly, and hopefully, something will stand out.  As in, “how come I’ve never seen it this way before?”.  It didn’t take me but a couple of pages into LOF Part 15, Part A, and in particular:

“As long as this phantom god (the beast) rules one’s heart, Jesus may only be "with us," but not really "IN us." For Jesus our King to sit in the heart of our temple, the man of sin must be put out,”

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

The first thing I thought was a confirmation, of sorts, of what I have been suspecting but not hoping, in that, Jesus is “with” but not “in”. 

But now this:

I Corinthians 3: 6 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

So, who is this spoken of?

I realize the “putting out” of the beast is a process, a life long process.  At least for me it has been/will be.

So here again we have the continual fight to best the beast and defeat his “ruling” of our heart, and resolve our daily tribulations and all off-shoots (questions, more questions, disappointments, happiness, ponderings, decisions, et al and etc), and all the while it remains to me a question of high importance:

Is Jesus “with” us, or “in” us, or both?
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: “In”…, or, …..”with”..?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 10:33:25 PM »

I don't have a sermon or lesson to go with all these references, but a couple of things struck me.

Just from these references, there are many which declare Christ is in us and also that we are in Christ.

Looking at 'with', it became apparent that almost all references were of us being with HIM, rather than Him being WITH us.  Exceptions are in the salutations which are essentially prayers for 'us'. 

(There are more than one Greek words translated as 'with', hence the ugly Strong's numbers)

It might be worth noting that the only exception I saw to statements that WE ARE or SHOULD BE with HIM was in:

1Th 3:13  To the end he may stablishG4741 yourG5216 heartsG2588 unblameableG273 inG1722 holinessG42 beforeG1715 God,G2316 evenG2532 ourG2257 Father,G3962 atG1722 theG3588 comingG3952 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 withG3326 allG3956 hisG846 saints.G40



Draw what conclusions the Lord leads, but I find it interesting (and inspirational) that the Spirit of God is praying for Christ to be with us while generally declaring that we are already with Christ.
 
 

Rom 8:1  There is thereforeG686 nowG3568 noG3762 condemnationG2631 to themG3588 which are inG1722 ChristG5547 Jesus,G2424 who walkG4043 notG3361 afterG2596 the flesh,G4561 butG235 afterG2596 the Spirit.G4151

 

Rom 8:10  AndG1161 ifG1487 ChristG5547 be inG1722 you,G5213 theG3588 bodyG4983 is(G3303) deadG3498 becauseG1223 of sin;G266 butG1161 theG3588 SpiritG4151 is lifeG2222 becauseG1223 of righteousness.G1343

Rom 8:11  ButG1161 ifG1487 theG3588 SpiritG4151 of him that raised upG1453 JesusG2424 fromG1537 the deadG3498 dwellG3611 inG1722 you,G5213 he that raised upG1453 ChristG5547 fromG1537 the deadG3498 shall alsoG2532 quickenG2227 yourG5216 mortalG2349 bodiesG4983 byG1223 hisG848 SpiritG4151 that dwellethG1774 inG1722 you.G5213

Col 3:16  Let theG3588 wordG3056 of ChristG5547 dwellG1774 inG1722 youG5213 richlyG4146 inG1722 allG3956 wisdom;G4678 teachingG1321 andG2532 admonishingG3560 one anotherG1438 in psalmsG5568 andG2532 hymnsG5215 andG2532 spiritualG4152 songs,G5603 singingG103 withG1722 graceG5485 inG1722 yourG5216 heartsG2588 to theG3588 Lord.G2962
 

Rom 12:5  SoG3779 we, being many,G4183 areG2070 oneG1520 bodyG4983 inG1722 Christ,G5547 andG1161 everyG2596 oneG1520 membersG3196 one of another.G240




Rom 6:4  ThereforeG3767 we are buriedG4916 with himG846 byG1223 baptismG908 intoG1519 death:G2288 thatG2443 like asG5618 ChristG5547 was raised upG1453 fromG1537 the deadG3498 byG1223 theG3588 gloryG1391 of theG3588 Father,G3962 evenG2532 soG3779 weG2249 alsoG2532 should walkG4043 inG1722 newnessG2538 of life.G2222

 Rom 6:8  NowG1161 ifG1487 we be deadG599 withG4862 Christ,G5547 we believeG4100 thatG3754 we shall alsoG2532 live withG4800 him:G846

 Rom 8:17  AndG1161 ifG1487 children,G5043 thenG2532 heirs;G2818 heirsG2818 of(G3303) God,G2316 andG1161 joint-heirsG4789 with Christ;G5547 if so be thatG1512 we suffer withG4841 him, thatG2443 we may be alsoG2532 glorified together.G4888

Rom 16:20  AndG1161 theG3588 GodG2316 of peaceG1515 shall bruiseG4937 SatanG4567 underG5259 yourG2257 feetG4228 shortly.G1722 G5034 TheG3588 graceG5485 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 be withG3326 you.G5216 Amen.G281

Rom 16:24  TheG3588 graceG5485 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 be withG3326 youG5216 all.G3956 Amen.G281

1Co 16:23  TheG3588 graceG5485 of our LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 be withG3326 you.G5216





2Co 13:14  TheG3588 graceG5485 of theG3588 LordG2962 JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 andG2532 theG3588 loveG26 of God,G2316 andG2532 theG3588 communionG2842 of theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 be withG3326 youG5216 all.G3956 Amen.G281 The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.

Eph 2:5  EvenG2532 when weG2248 wereG5607 deadG3498 in sins,G3900 hath quickened us togetherG4806 with Christ, (byG5547 graceG5485 ye areG2075 saved;)G4982

Php 1:23  ForG1063 I am in a straitG4912 betwixtG1537 two,G1417 havingG2192 a desireG1939 to depart,G360 andG2532 to beG1511 withG4862 Christ;G5547 which is farG4183 G3123 better:G2909

Col 2:20  WhereforeG3767 ifG1487 ye be deadG599 withG4862 ChristG5547 fromG575 theG3588 rudimentsG4747 of theG3588 world,G2889 why,G5101 as thoughG5613 livingG2198 inG1722 the world,G2889 are ye subject to ordinances,G1379

Col 3:1  IfG1487 ye thenG3767 be risen withG4891 Christ,G5547 seekG2212 those things which are above,G507 whereG3757 ChristG5547 sittethG2076 G2521 onG1722 the right handG1188 of God.G2316

Col 3:3  ForG1063 ye are dead,G599 andG2532 yourG5216 lifeG2222 is hidG2928 withG4862 ChristG5547 inG1722 God.G2316

Col 3:4  WhenG3752 Christ,G5547 who is ourG2257 life,G2222 shall appear,G5319 thenG5119 shall yeG5210 alsoG2532 appearG5319 withG4862 himG846 inG1722 glory.G1391

1Th 3:13  To the end he may stablishG4741 yourG5216 heartsG2588 unblameableG273 inG1722 holinessG42 beforeG1715 God,G2316 evenG2532 ourG2257 Father,G3962 atG1722 theG3588 comingG3952 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 withG3326 allG3956 hisG846 saints.G40

1Th 5:28  TheG3588 graceG5485 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 be withG3326 you.G5216 Amen.G281 The first epistle to the Thessalonians was written from Athens.

2Th 3:18  TheG3588 graceG5485 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 be withG3326 youG5216 all.G3956 Amen.G281 The second epistle to the Thessalonians was written from Athens.

2Ti 4:22  TheG3588 LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 be withG3326 thyG4675 spirit.G4151 GraceG5485 be withG3326 you.G5216 Amen.G281 The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.

Phm 1:25  TheG3588 graceG5485 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 be withG3326 yourG5216 spirit.G4151 Amen.G281 Written from Rome to Philemon, by Onesimus a servant.

 1Jn 1:3  That whichG3739 we have seenG3708 andG2532 heardG191 declareG518 we unto you,G5213 thatG2443 yeG5210 alsoG2532 may haveG2192 fellowshipG2842 withG3326 us:G2257 andG2532 trulyG1161 ourG2251 fellowshipG2842 is withG3326 theG3588 Father,G3962 andG2532 withG3326 hisG848 SonG5207 JesusG2424 Christ.G5547


Rev 20:4  AndG2532 I sawG1492 thrones,G2362 andG2532 they satG2523 uponG1909 them,G846 andG2532 judgmentG2917 was givenG1325 unto them:G846 andG2532 I saw theG3588 soulsG5590 of them that were beheadedG3990 forG1223 theG3588 witnessG3141 of Jesus,G2424 andG2532 forG1223 theG3588 wordG3056 of God,G2316 andG2532 whichG3748 had notG3756 worshippedG4352 theG3588 beast,G2342 neitherG3777 hisG846 image,G1504 neitherG2532 G3756 had receivedG2983 his markG5480 uponG1909 theirG848 foreheads,G3359 orG2532 inG1909 theirG848 hands;G5495 andG2532 they livedG2198 andG2532 reignedG936 withG3326 ChristG5547 a thousandG5507 years.G2094

 
 




 






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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Heidi

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Re: “In”…, or, …..”with”..?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2008, 06:21:52 AM »



“As long as this phantom god (the beast) rules ones heart, Jesus may only be "with us," but not really "IN us." For Jesus our King to sit in the heart of our temple, the man of sin must be put out,”

Is Jesus “with” us, or in” us, or both?


Like you Amrhrasach I am also aware of the above.  What I want to know is....when does true conversion come?  Just  like with the apostles.  The Spirit was with them prior to conversion and then after conversion the Spirit was in them.  When will I know that the latter has happened? Or does it only happen in the first Resurrection?

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joyful1

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Re: “In”…, or, …..”with”..?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2008, 08:32:32 AM »

:D Hi guys! Is this what you are looking for?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.0

2006 Mobile Conference--transcript of first audio
 WHAT IS "THE FATHER'S WILL?"
 
[excerpt]
So let’s think about this a little bit, who is the Father?  In Him we live and breath and have our being.  Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish.  The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light.  It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen.  So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God.  The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.

Now this is what the scripture say, we are in God and God is in us.  So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair.  God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.

God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you can’t see Him, not literally.  We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our intermost being.
 
The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God.  I’m trying to help you right now, to see God.  So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didn’t, when you walked in here.  If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.
 
God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He’ll still be after we leave.  Because this desk is here and this desk has it cohesion in Jesus Christ.  It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart.  It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it’s passed off out of Him.  One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him.  GOD IS ALMIGHTY!

What did Jesus say when He left His apostles and vanished out of their sight.
 
He said, “all power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth,” (Matt. 28:18).
 
That’s why He has come, He’s not the Father, but He’s God and He possesses all power in heaven and earth.  By being the One, who possesses all power in heaven and earth, He is God.  He didn’t have all power in heaven and earth from all eternity, it was given to Him.  One God, everything is out of that God.  We’re in Him and He’s in us, because He’s Spirit.  Not a Spirit, in some geographical location.  The reason God knows everything, is in all places at all times, is because that’s where He is.  He’s Spirit and He refers to Himself as Spirit.  My Spirit is here, there and everywhere.

David was inspired to write, where can I go to get away from you God, up to heaven, down to sheol, (Psalms 139:7-12).
There’s no place I can go, where you are not.  Why?  God is Spirit, God is not a man, get that out of your head.  He (God) tells us that, God is not a man, Jesus Christ is a man.

Where is God?  EVERYWHERE!
If your in a life raft, out in the middle of the ocean, you don’t have to cry out to God, to help you.  God can see you, in the big ocean.  He’s there, whether He’ll help, that’s a different story.  But He is there.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 09:02:24 AM by joyful1 »
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joyful1

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Re: “In”…, or, …..”with”..?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2008, 09:00:30 AM »

And for Heidi's question-- hope this helps! :D

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

The Lake of Fire
Installment XV, Part C
The Myth of ‘Free Will’ Exposed
 [excerpt]
Every vessel of humanity is first made “marred in the hand of the Potter.” ... “the carnal mind is enmity against God,” ... “for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.” Every vessel must be refashioned--regenerated, converted, judged, purged, and born again of the Spirit.

This regeneration of the human heart and mind occurs during two appointed times:

JUDGED NOW OR JUDGED LATER

“For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at the House of God, and if it first begin at us [NOW], what shall the end be of them that obey NOT the gospel of God [LATER]?”  (I Pet. 4:17).

“For if we would judge [‘adjudicate’—thoroughly separate ourselves from sin] ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord [NOW], that we should not be condemned with the world [LATER]” (I Cor. 11:31-32).

“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins [NOW]. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries [LATER]”  (Heb. 10:26-27).

[We can either] “Agree with your adversaries quickly, while you are in the way with him [NOW], lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison [LATER]” (Matt. 5:25).

There will be more on these judgments in future Installments of this series.
========================
and from
FOUNDATIONAL TRUTHS . . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy Feb. 2008
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=6452.0

Now I’m not going to go through all the parables today, I have another point in mind.  But the principle fits here and that’s why I want to start off with the parables.  There are about 40 parables in the New Testament.  It starts off with the lamp under the bushel/basket, then you have the wise man, the two men in the bed.  
It doesn’t mean there are just these two, it’s just two categories.
 
One builds his house upon the rock and the other one builds his house on the sand.  This is not the same man, presented by the two men.  Now it’s true that we can go from one to the other, but most of the parables present them at the same time.  You can’t do it at the same time, there is a transition where you repent and you are converted and you become the new person and you leave the other one behind.  The other one does not follow with equal stature from then on.  If it does you are not producing fruit and you are not going anywhere.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 09:03:25 AM by joyful1 »
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Roy Monis

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Re: “In”…, or, …..”with”..?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2008, 11:17:59 AM »

As usual when reading something for the 2nd time (3rd, 4th, etc) undoubtedly, and hopefully, something will stand out.  As in, “how come I’ve never seen it this way before?”.  It didn’t take me but a couple of pages into LOF Part 15, Part A, and in particular:

“As long as this phantom god (the beast) rules one’s heart, Jesus may only be "with us," but not really "IN us." For Jesus our King to sit in the heart of our temple, the man of sin must be put out,”

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

The first thing I thought was a confirmation, of sorts, of what I have been suspecting but not hoping, in that, Jesus is “with” but not “in”. 

But now this:

I Corinthians 3: 6 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

So, who is this spoken of?

I realize the “putting out” of the beast is a process, a life long process.  At least for me it has been/will be.

So here again we have the continual fight to best the beast and defeat his “ruling” of our heart, and resolve our daily tribulations and all off-shoots (questions, more questions, disappointments, happiness, ponderings, decisions, et al and etc), and all the while it remains to me a question of high importance:

Is Jesus “with” us, or “in” us, or both?



Hi! Amehrasach

IMO...... I believe Christ is in us and the beast is also in us. Christ is the Light and the beast is Satan's agent within hiding in darkness. "No man, when he hath lighted a lamp, putteth it in a cellar, neither under the bushel, but on the stand, that they which enter in may see the light. The lamp of thy body is thine eye: when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when it is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Look therefore whether the light that is in thee be not darkness." (Jn.11:33-35).

The above verse is telling me that Christ is the Light and we instead of putting Him on the lampstand where everything can be seen, we have shoved Him under the bed in the darkness where the beast is hiding. So they are both within the temple darkness while Satan is in the light laughing.
 
Now we have this verse which no one seems to be bothered with"And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God."  (Jn.3:19-21).

This verse is telling me that we prefer the darkness that is within us in preference to the Light that is also within us. But in order to get rid of the darkness, the beast/idols/I/Ego and such, we have to drag them into the light as Jak has done. It is only then, when the beast has been exposed in the Light that the Light in you can be brought into action.

Just my humble opinion. I hope it helps.   

God bless you brother/sister (I've no idea which) in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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winner08

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Re: “In”…, or, …..”with”..?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 12:51:16 PM »

Hi, Roy from the UK. I haven't seen to much of you lately. Are you alright? Maby I just missed you on line? Anyways Thanks for all your insite (wisdom).

                                     Darren
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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: “In”…, or, …..”with”..?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2008, 06:54:04 AM »

Hi, Roy from the UK. I haven't seen to much of you lately. Are you alright? Maby I just missed you on line? Anyways Thanks for all your insite (wisdom).

                                     Darren


Hi! Darren

Thank you, brother, for your kind concern. Yes, I'm doing fine and hope the Lord is working His will with you as well. I may not have posted much lately but, rest assured, I read all the postings and learn from them. There is a mountain of information out there which is very difficult to keep abreast with.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

 
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