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Author Topic: 1 Timothy 2:4  (Read 2625 times)

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fstamp

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1 Timothy 2:4
« on: July 20, 2008, 02:24:49 PM »

My wife's Authorized King James Version (1985-translated out of the original tongues) renders this verse "who  WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

"The New Testament" translated from the Sinaitic manuscript discovered by Constantine Tischendorf at Mt. Sinai renders this same verse as "who WILLS that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." 

American Standard-ASV 1901 renders it "who WOULD have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 

I've also seen the words "wishes" and "desires" being used in this verse. 

CONFUSED?

Thanks, FSTAMP...
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winner08

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2008, 03:03:11 PM »

This also confuses me. When reading my Bible or asked a question, I always have to wonder if the translation is correct. As before I started reading Ray's teachings I did not know any better. At that time I thought ignorent in bliss.

                                  Darren
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Kat

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2008, 04:04:55 PM »

Hi FATAMP,

Well here is what the different Concrodances have.  I hope this is not more confusing, but it will give you and idea of how this word is used.

1Ti 2:4  Who will2309 have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (KJV)


Strong's
will - G2309

θέλω, ἐθέλω

thelō  ethelō

thel'-o, eth-el'-o

Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō  thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω  etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).


will - G2309

θέλω  /  ἐθέλω

thelō  /  ethelō

Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
    1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
    1b) to desire, to wish
    1c) to love
         1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure


King James Concordance
will - G2309

θέλω  /  ἐθέλω

thelō  /  ethelō

Total KJV Occurrences: 208

would - 73 times
Mat_2:18, Mat_5:42, Mat_7:12, Mat_12:38, Mat_14:5, Mat_18:23, Mat_18:30, Mat_22:3, Mat_23:37 (2), Mat_27:15, Mat_27:34, Mar_3:13, Mar_6:19, Mar_6:26, Mar_6:48, Mar_7:24, Mar_9:30, Mar_10:35-36 (2), Luk_1:62, Luk_6:31, Luk_13:34 (2), Luk_15:28, Luk_16:26, Luk_18:4, Luk_18:13, Luk_19:27, Joh_1:43, Joh_6:11, Joh_7:1, Joh_7:44, Joh_9:27, Joh_12:21, Act_7:39, Act_10:10, Act_14:13, Act_16:3, Act_19:33, Act_24:6, Act_26:5, Rom_1:13, Rom_7:15-16 (2), Rom_7:19-21 (4), Rom_11:25, Rom_16:19, 1Co_7:7, 1Co_7:32, 1Co_10:1, 1Co_10:20, 1Co_11:3, 1Co_12:1, 1Co_14:5, 2Co_1:8, 2Co_5:4, 2Co_12:20 (2), Gal_1:7, Gal_3:2, Gal_5:17 (2), Col_1:27, Col_2:1, 1Th_2:18, 1Th_4:13, 2Th_3:10, Phm_1:14, Heb_12:17

will - 69
Mat_5:40, Mat_8:3, Mat_11:13-14 (2), Mat_12:7, Mat_15:32, Mat_16:24-25 (2), Mat_20:14-15 (2), Mat_20:26-27 (2), Mat_20:32, Mat_21:29, Mat_23:4, Mat_26:15, Mat_26:39, Mat_27:17, Mat_27:21, Mat_27:43, Mar_1:41, Mar_6:25, Mar_8:34-35 (2), Mar_10:43-44 (2), Mar_14:7, Mar_14:36, Mar_15:9, Mar_15:12, Luk_4:6, Luk_5:13, Luk_9:23-24 (2), Luk_12:49, Luk_13:31, Luk_19:14, Joh_5:21, Joh_5:40, Joh_6:67, Joh_7:17, Joh_8:44, Joh_9:27, Joh_15:7, Joh_17:24, Joh_21:22, Act_17:18, Act_18:21, Rom_9:18 (3), 1Co_4:19, 1Co_4:21, 1Co_7:36, 1Co_7:39, 1Co_14:35, 1Co_16:7, 2Co_8:11, Phi_2:13, 1Ti_2:4, 1Ti_5:11, 2Ti_3:12, Jam_4:15, 1Pe_3:10, 3Jo_1:13, Rev_11:5-6 (3), Rev_22:17

wilt - 22
Mat_8:2, Mat_15:28 (2), Mat_17:4, Mat_19:17, Mat_20:21 (2), Mat_26:17, Mar_1:40, Mar_6:22, Mar_10:51, Mar_14:12, Mar_14:36, Luk_5:12, Luk_9:54, Luk_18:41, Luk_22:9, Joh_5:6, Act_7:28, Act_9:6, Rom_13:3, Jam_2:20

desire - 9
Mar_9:35, Luk_20:46, 2Co_11:12, 2Co_12:6, Gal_4:9, Gal_4:20-21 (2), Gal_6:12-13 (2)

willing - 8
Mat_1:19, Luk_10:29, Luk_23:20, Joh_5:35, Act_24:27, Act_25:9, Rom_9:22, Heb_13:18

wouldest - 4
Joh_21:18 (3), Heb_10:5, Heb_10:8

desirous - 3
Luk_23:8 (2), Joh_16:19, 2Co_11:32

desiring - 2
Luk_8:20, 1Ti_1:7

listed - 2
Mar_9:12-13 (2)
 
pleased - 2
1Co_12:18, 1Co_15:38
 
willingly - 2
Joh_6:21, 2Pe_3:5

desired - 1
Luk_10:24

desireth - 1
Luk_5:39

disposed - 1
1Co_10:27

forward - 1
2Co_8:10

intending - 1
Luk_14:28

listeth - 1
Joh_3:8

love - 1
Mar_12:38

mean - 1
Act_17:20

meaneth - 1
Act_2:12

rather - 1
1Co_14:19

voluntary - 1
Col_2:18

willeth - 1
Rom_9:16

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 04:41:20 PM by Kat »
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ciy

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 11:30:06 PM »

Fstamp,

I see no confusion here at all.  Whether God will have all men to be saved or whether He wills all men to be saved or whether He would have all men to be saved, the end results is the same. 
All men will be saved. 
This is God we are taking about, so if He desires, wishes, wills, wants, etc it will all be done. 

CIY
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dewey

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2008, 12:02:49 AM »

hello  ciy , I dont think that  could have been explained any better than you just did .
 in the spirit of Christ,  love ya , dewey said it
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Paul

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2008, 02:10:06 AM »

And I'd like to point out that 1 Timothy 4:10 is much more concrete proof that all will be saved:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 02:13:25 AM by Paul »
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Dave UK

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2008, 03:39:39 AM »

Hi Paul
I'm currently re reading LOF part 5 ,and Ray goes into some detail about that verse in this paper.

http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html

Dave
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David

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2008, 05:47:21 AM »

If God wishes, wills, desires, has an inclination towards, or however else theologians wish to translate this or any other verses, God WILL bring the salvation of ALL men to pass.
Have a listen to Ray's Febuary 2008 Bible study, Foundational truths.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2008, 10:04:36 AM »


Have a listen to Ray's Febuary 2008 Bible study, Foundational truths.

That's today's homework assignment for me, David. 

Why, oh why are there so many Davids in this forum? 

"What do you think, David?"

"I don't know...let's ask Dave."

"Which Dave?"

"I meant David."

"Oh THAT one.  I asked him already and he said, 'Hey, don't ask me, David!"

"Well, I guess there are other Dave's that might have the answer."

"Ordinarily, I wouldn't say this, but the odds are stacked heavily in favor of SOME Dave or David knowing why there are so many of us here."

"Yep.  Evolution is flimsier science that one, David."

Just another David.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Samson

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2008, 11:05:36 AM »

My wife's Authorized King James Version (1985-translated out of the original tongues) renders this verse "who  WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

"The New Testament" translated from the Sinaitic manuscript discovered by Constantine Tischendorf at Mt. Sinai renders this same verse as "who WILLS that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." 

American Standard-ASV 1901 renders it "who WOULD have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 

I've also seen the words "wishes" and "desires" being used in this verse. 

CONFUSED?

Thanks, FSTAMP...

Hello FSTAMP,

                      This is an interesting Thread as I just got finished discussing the Salvation of All belief with an outside family member. From what I understand regarding 1 Timothy. 2:3,4 and 1 Timothy 4:10 is that the Greek Word for Will in these Scriptures are the " Strong and Absolute Form of WILL " instead of the weaker Form of Will that is usually rendered " wants "; " desire's "; or " wishes ". It's the same form of the Word WILL that's used at Matthew. 6:9 " Thy WILL be done. However, when God WILLS, WANTS, DESIRE'S OR WISHES  to do something, it's a perfectly done deal. The people that believe in Free Will and don't believe in Eventual Salvation for All, look at that word WILL in these passages as " wishfull thinking " on God's part that would require a person's " Free Will " in order to be accomplished by God. If God has the WILL OR DESIRE to do something, Man's will can't prevent it.

                      See and read or re-read Ray's Transcript entitled " Does All mean All " , it explains All(no pun intended) about this(Will, All(gk-pas); etc.) Read 2 Peter. 3:9 regarding God wills or desire's that None perish. This proves that all will be saved. If God WILLS THAT NONE PERISH, then it logically has to prove that everyone else is going to be saved, because their are two groups, the None Group( no person in this group, it's empty), which leaves through process of elimination and deductive reasoning that everyone else has to be in the Saved group.

                       Hope this helps, If not, my apologies, then proceed to re-read Ray's article mentioned above.

                                             Kind Regards, Samson.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 02:02:37 PM »

Hi Folks,

Let's read these 2 witnesses;


Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

2656 Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Keeping the above in mind let's read 1Timothy 2:4 again;

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Great contributions all!

Peace,

Joe

 


 
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David

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2008, 02:37:49 PM »


Have a listen to Ray's February 2008 Bible study, Foundational truths.

That's today's homework assignment for me, David. 

Why, oh why are there so many Davids in this forum? 

"What do you think, David?"

"I don't know...let's ask Dave."

"Which Dave?"

"I meant David."

"Oh THAT one.  I asked him already and he said, 'Hey, don't ask me, David!"

"Well, I guess there are other Dave's that might have the answer."

"Ordinarily, I wouldn't say this, but the odds are stacked heavily in favor of SOME Dave or David knowing why there are so many of us here."

"Yep.  Evolution is flimsier science that one, David."

Just another David.

Hahahaha, seems like we have a very popular name.
I read an article on this many years ago, about popular Biblical names. Seems the one most chosen by parents next to John, Paul and Peter is David.......but then surely there should be more Johns, Paul's and Peters?
Well I don't believe in coincidences, somethings going on  ;D
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David

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2008, 02:45:35 PM »

And I'd like to point out that 1 Timothy 4:10 is much more concrete proof that all will be saved:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV)

A wonderfull scripture Paul.
I like some of the scriptures that don't come flat out and say all will be saved, but absolutely mean all will be saved. One of my favourites, Matthew 5:4  Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.

So many people either read over the word "Shall" in this verse, or diminish this profound prophesy and commandment as though it should read "well, it would be nice of everyone who mourned were comforted, but its unlikely".
When Jesus Christ says "Shall" , we can take that to the bank, its going to happen regardless of what Christians would like to believe.   
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2008, 07:35:35 PM »

Yes, sir, David.  It's everywhere...It's EVERYWHERE!   :)

It takes an adult to NOT see it.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

ciy

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Re: 1 Timothy 2:4
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2008, 07:45:03 PM »

David,

I agree that it is so thrilling to have eyes to see the salvation of all throughout the bible and not just in a few direct verses.  It is interesting to list all verses that say it flat out or that says it flat out in a round-a-bout way.

One I have always loved that is not brought out very often is Luke 3:6

"And all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

But there are many more peppered throughout the OT and the NT.

It is true.  It is true.  Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the whole world, so rejoice and be exceedingly glad.

CIY
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