Kicked out?

[Becky]

Hi Ray!

What a blessing your site is. Every piece of truth is another building block towards freedom in Christ! If/when you have time I would like to hear your Scriptural views on returning to the church, after God has called us out. I've been out of the church for 3 years, and suddenly I seem to feel the call to return. Although I disagree with most everything they believe and teach, I can't seem to get past Matthew 5:14-16, "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."

It seems to me that throughout the 5th chapter of Matthew Jesus is calling us to love those who don't love us, or agree with us. Can His light in me be seen by these people? I doubt that it can. Would you agree that Jesus' light was the brightest of them all? Yet how many saw God's light in Him? Only those who God chose, right? Very few. If these people can't see the truth in the Scriptures, and apparently God has sent a strong delusion so they would believe a lie, am I working against God when I share the truth with them?

Am I wrong to think that God called Paul out of the church, gave/taught him new understanding of the Scriptures, and then sent him back into the church. Isn't this a Scriptural pattern? Couldn't the same be said about all of the disciples (save Luke who was a gentile)? They were called out of the church by Jesus, given new understanding of the Scriptures and sent back into the church. Even Jesus was called out (into the wilderness), set-apart unto God, needless to say taught new things and then sent back, right?

Amos said, "Can two walk together unless they are agreed?" Can they? I know it's very, very hard! Even if they can walk together in complete disagreement over everything, how long can it continue for?

Ray, do you think I can sit in a congregation of people and listen to them belittle God, with their ridiculous preconceived ideas and erroneous beliefs, all the while keeping my mouth shut, and still have peace? I would gladly sacrifice my peace if God could be glorified in my silent attendance.

A myriad of ridiculous questions I suppose. Sorry if I've wasted your valuable time. I'll understand if you don't reply.

God bless your ministry, Ray!

Richard


Dear Richard:
You have a lot of complicated questions/statements/issues that could take days to untangle and answer. God does not call us BACK into the church that He calls us out of. There are the called and the chosen few--they are both part of God's Church, but the chosen come out of the part of God's Church which is called Mystery Mabylon the Great.

Why if you don't agree with virtually anything that is taught, would you ever want to return? You know what the Scriptures say about a dog returning to his own vomit? And "touch not the unclean thing," etc.

Of course people saw the light of Christ, it's just that they didn't comprehend it. He was a witness AGAINST most of them, as we are a witness AGAINST the carnal church today. My message is not to convince the Church of her wrong ways, but rather to witness against her. She will not change except through severe judgment.

You mention being a light. Have you ever noticed that a light does not make very much noise? Not everyone is called to teach and preach (See I Cor. 12:29). We are to let people see our light and our good works, not our clever arguments against their doctrines. Do not cast your pearls of God's Truths to the dogs and the pigs who do not want them.
God be with you,
Ray

PS Be sure to read my upcoming paper: "WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS--Another Christian Heresy."

[/color]

I have had trouble with this concept of being kicked out of the church.
I left my church a while ago.
They did not "kick me out"
Was I supposed to stay until they did?
I dont think I'm supposed to go back and let them am I?
My husband is waiting for me to "come around" so he can be social again in a church..... what if I never go back?  He'll blame his not going on me.
We don't have kids..... if and when we do this issue will be hard.
I know I'm concerned about things that will be taken care of, but I'm scared.

Becky

[shibboleth]

I wasn't "kicked out" of any church I belonged to either. One of the reasons I wasn't, is because I didn't see many of the truths I now believe in until I finally left all denominational churches.

I saw many of the contradictions taught in church and I asked lots of questions, but felt the church leaders were trying to avoid my heartfelt and sincere questions. But every church I left was because of doctrinal issues or worship patterns. I left one church because they were only concerned with works and getting the holy spirit to do things. Another church I left because of their false creedal beliefs. God slowly took me out of organized church.

I will tell you one thing, if I ever went back to organized church, and told them what I really believe, I would be thrown out. Or they would at least ask me to keep my mouth shut. But I know I couldn't keep my mouth shut, so I won't go to church and listen to false doctrine and be told I have to pay for it with my tithes and offerings.

I pray your husband sees the light before you have children. My husband has no interest in church and my kids weren't raised in any denomimation. I was in and out of church their growing up years. Now I look back and see how God used all these denominations to prune me and show me his truth. Contrast between good and evil, truth and lies, light and dark, the real Jesus and the fake Jesus.

If you go back to church, you will have to keep quiet when everything inside of you will say this is not right. Being misunderstood is part of the price we pay to be elect.

[orion77]

Becky, I can understand what you are going through.  Just last year they opened a new babtist church close to home.  Now my wife and lots of her family have been attending this church.  Some of them have asked why I will not attend.  Then I show them with scripture and share of my own experiences and now some of them are questioning this church, and lots of the family are blaming me for this.

So be it, I simply will not go to some building and listen to someone falsely accuse Gods name and character and then sing songs in joy about it.  Not me, no way.  Although I know these people have good intentions, but they are deceived.  Until God opens their eyes, they will refuse to see.

Its like when God miraculously delivered the Israelites out of Egypt, most of them wanted to go back.

(Num 14:3)  And wherefore doth Jehovah bring us unto this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will be a prey: were it not better for us to return into Egypt?

(Num 14:4)  And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.



We know if we return to Egypt, they will devour us like wolves.  Would the pharoh of egypt of been good to the Israelites if they returned?  When I go to a church and question their teachings, what happens?  Press forward, cross the river Jordan into the Promised land.  

I know it's easier said than done.  Dying daily, being crucified with the Lord, physically is not easy.  We have His Spirit in us, the spiritual truths far outweigh the physical lies they preach.  

You are not alone, Becky.  This forum has been a huge blessing to me, to finally see there are others with simular experiences.  My prayers are with you.

God bless,

Gary

[Becky]

thanks for your replies!  That makes me feel better knowing I don't have to physically be kicked out... but I guess I was shunned by those who didn't like all my questions and concerns for the traditions of the church.

My husband has somewhat listened to my earlier excited discussions on all of this (and now I have let the "preaching phase" go) and he tried telling me that if i were to be kicked out, to go and then they would kick me out.  He said I wouldn't reach anyone if I believed I knew some truths if I just kept it to myself.  It's not about witnessing like the old church thinks right?  Ray said he was doing a new paper on "winning souls for christ" (or something like that).  I can't wait to read it.

My husband must think I am self righteous to think all the churches are speaking lies and that I am the only one who sees the truth (according to him).

Boy o boy was Paul right when he said we'd be persecuted... I always imagined physical persecution (which could also be the case)... but the "enemy" being in my own mind and my own family is so much more difficult (and effective: when it comes to deceiving us) than I could have imagined!

[gmik]

Hi Becky.....I was never kicked out of a church....Started out baptist, got bored but as I was reading the Bible realized they were missing a few things IMO....then went Lutheran-even got baptized (with all the little ones!) :lol: It was there that I realized I had to get out of churchianity-didn't really know about Babylon but knew that what I was reading in the Bible was not what was going on there....So went into the pentecostal/charismatic/faith/prosperity thing.  They were NON denominational so I had definetly left mainline Christianity-I thought.  After awhile went into home bible studies-we knew it all better than anyone else!  Now, since I stumbled onto Ray and Mike I really feel like I am finally out....except that I went to church on Mothers Day to be with my family- There is about 3,000 people there so I just sat and read my notes from Ray's teachings.  Songs were fine and it was a feel good message for mom's. I don't feel any compulsion to say a word, even  if I could,  or tell anybody anything.

As a mom and grandma, it took years of praying to get everyone excited about the Lord and involved in church!  And the irony is that now I have to pray that they all leave it behind! My kids will ask once in awhile what more I have been learning "at that site you are always on" they will agree with me But I see no searching yet.

Anyhoo, didn't want to prattle on, but I feel I have left Babylon, but if I walk into a building once in awhile for my family, I don't feel I have gone back into it.  Besides, we do God's will no matter what.

[Becky]

that makes sense that just physically going into the church isn't going back into babylon.... what makes you really back in it is agreeing and going along with the doctrine. (I think) ??

When I left my home church of christ, i had had it with the corruption in the church... but i thought it was just that particular church... then i went to a lutheran church with my husband... it was a large contemporary lutheran church... it seemed great at first... but the pastors couldn't answer my questions on the traditions...(like why they wore the 'angel" robes to preach in, and infant baptism... i wish i knew then what i know know about spiritual baptism)... gee... this is turning into a testamony... I'll end here and write a testamony later .... anyhoo

[worm]

if we are led by the Spirit we'll go where-ever He directs us...

Jesus (being led by the Spirit) went to synagogs (back to church)...preached in the temple (back to church) but also preached on the hills in Galilee (out of church) and everywhere the Spirit led Him...to tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, the houses of Pharisees, Samaritans (who was hated by the Jews)...He wasn't picky now was He?

how will the called in the church or anywhere else they reside, know about the chosen if no-one tells them?

[hillsbororiver]

Perhaps the Spirit of God  will lead them.

Psa 143:10  Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Don't forget this admonishment. Are we to go out and then come back?

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

There is no denying the Lord may have a role for us to play in this;

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

The Lord has different commissions for His own, if someone is called by Him to go into the denominations and preach then by all means do it, but for the rest of us we should display the fruits of the spirit and be prepared to give an answer when the Lord drags someone our way.

Joe

[Craig]

if we are led by the Spirit we'll go where-ever He directs us...

Jesus (being led by the Spirit) went to synagogs (back to church)...preached in the temple (back to church) but also preached on the hills in Galilee (out of church) and everywhere the Spirit led Him...to tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, the houses of Pharisees, Samaritans (who was hated by the Jews)...He wasn't picky now was He?

how will the called in the church or anywhere else they reside, know about the chosen if no-one tells them?

If they are being called out then we don't have to worry "telling them"  the Father will take care of that part.  

Thinking we have to do something may be the most carnal trait that any of us have to face (and I'm still facing it).  My experience is that if I try to "tell" people, then I fall flat on my face.  If the Father drags people my way and I answer their seeking questions then things work out.

Remember we are not all called to be teachers, ministers etc.  And when we try to force that calling upon ourselves we become the same as the early church leaders that set christianity on  the path that it has become today.

We should be living our lives in the correct manner and be ready to answer any questions.

I liked what Ray said in an email.  "A light does not give off any sound"  If the light of Christ shines in us then He will do the talking.

Craig

[Sorin]

I have had trouble with this concept of being kicked out of the church.
I left my church a while ago.
They did not "kick me out"

I didn't get kicked out either, I left on my own.

Was I supposed to stay until they did?

Nope, Revelation 18:4 says to "come out of her" not get kicked out of her. :wink:

I dont think I'm supposed to go back and let them am I?

No, of course not.

My husband is waiting for me to "come around" so he can be social again in a church..... what if I never go back? He'll blame his not going on me.
We don't have kids..... if and when we do this issue will be hard.
I know I'm concerned about things that will be taken care of, but I'm scared.

Well I don't have any kids either, I'm not even married. But I would never
take my kids to "church". I mean Hell would first have to exist, and then it would have to freeze over, before I took my child to the Synagogue. :lol:

[Becky]

Well I don't have any kids either, I'm not even married. But I would never
take my kids to "church". I mean Hell would first have to exist, and then it would have to freeze over, before I took my child to the Synagogue. :lol:

 hahaha thanks!

[worm]

[quote="parsonssc]
Thinking we have to do something may be the most carnal trait that any of us have to face (and I'm still facing it).  My experience is that if I try to "tell" people, then I fall flat on my face.  If the Father drags people my way and I answer their seeking questions then things work out. [/quote]

have we ever wondered what the purpose is of coming out?

Scripture is pretty clear to me showing that the overcomers must first experience a time in the wilderness...before going back to minister and rule where they come from...ie Moses spent 40 years in exile before going back to Egypt to lead the people out...similarly, David spent many years hiding in caves and the wilderness before going back to lead his people...Jesus Himself spent 40 days in the wilderness before going back to the sunagogs and temple where he came from to lead his people out...

yes, and sometimes when we go back we don't have the knowledge yet to bring down the Pastor's idle heart...but as we learn and grow on the outside...we become strong so that in the end, no doctrine or dogma can hurt us or cast those shadows of doubt (Babylon) in our hearts anymore...then we can reason with the fiercest Pharisee out there

we might feel now that we never want to go back...but coming out is just a preparation phase...it is not the end and solution...our time spent in the wilderness (outside) is to prepare us for a bigger mission to come  :wink:

[Craig]

Scripture is pretty clear to me showing that the overcomers must first experience a time in the wilderness...before going back to minister and rule where they come from...:

I agree 100 percent,.........IF.....that is your calling.  Not everyone is called to do this, just look at the mess christianity is in now.

Ministering could mean to live among the masses and letting your light shine for them.

Craig

[Becky]

I think the detail missing here is the spiritual aspect of "going back".

I think returning to our vomit would mean that you mentally go back to that doctrine, the teaching, the traditions of the old law.

Going back physically in the physical church is irrelevant if we are thinking spiritually. I was out of the church building for a while before I was out of Egypt spiritually.

The people's heart and mind will be what we go back to after the wilderness.. to help bring others out. Leaving the wildnerness includes being prepared to give a reason when asked and exposing those who contradict (among other things).

Since Christianity is all around us, we don't have to go anywhere to be in spiritual Egypt discussing spiritual truths to the lost sheep of Israel... it's right outside our front door.

[Becky]

exactly  :wink:

[lilitalienboi16]

Perhaps the Spirit of God  will lead them.

Psa 143:10  Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Don't forget this admonishment. Are we to go out and then come back?

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

There is no denying the Lord may have a role for us to play in this;

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

The Lord has different commissions for His own, if someone is called by Him to go into the denominations and preach then by all means do it, but for the rest of us we should display the fruits of the spirit and be prepared to give an answer when the Lord drags someone our way.

Joe

<--- Exactly, I have no elect, not even a chosen in my life, and i have found such deep spiritual truth through Gods grace, that my church is either unaware of or refuses to believe. I share this truth with my brothers and the little flock the Lord has given me, and by His will i can be true and faithfull to them and not teach them heresies so that they can run the race with me, and we may finish together God willing. What a blessing that would be. Through His strength and His will i will help my brothers to the end of that race!

My church is still very carnal minded, and even after exposing one of the heresies to my sunday school teacher, a week later he went right back to believing what he had before. (The immortal soul and going straight to heaven after we die) I had shown him the truth, he had seen exactly what i was tlaking about, he was agreeing with me and listening, and what happens? The next week hes back to his old ways. I guess those that are blind are truly blind no matter how much they or WE want them to see.

I am blessed to have found this site, you know how i found it? I was on a GAMEING WEBSITE cuz i play games hehe, and God knows i frequent the site only everyday and there was the link, some guy had posted it out of the blue and boom i clicked on it, and thank God was i opened ot the fruit of the spirit in everyway. I still pray to grow and learn everything i can, i am still a baby chewing on that meat, but im getting there and God willing i can overcome and finish the race faithfull called and chosen

I can see the point worm was making though, in the fact that had the Lord not picked me, i would have never seen any of this and been as blind as my church, but then again everyone God picks is called and then he chooses them so no matter what if it is His will for them to hear the deep truths and revalations of Christ and to be an overcomer and faithfull then they will hear about, they WILL, because it is GODS WILL.

God bless,

Alex

[love_magnified]

Answer to first post: I was told that I would have to openly renounce it in order to stay. My pastor came up with a plan to have me stay out of church for a while. He said that when a part of a body has a disease you must searate it so it can bring healing. He meant it out of love, and was gracious about it. But, it changed my opinion about modern Christianity. Then his solution was to send someone to "talk about the doctrine." After the person he sent found out that his answers would not quickly take care of the problem, being that he said "yeah, what you are saying does make sense" I simply did not return. I'm not sure if that qualifies as a kick-out, but I was happy to leave. I saw the bugs under the great big smiling rock.

[Becky]

So was your pastor saying that you werea disease?? Gee.  :?

[love_magnified]

Not that I was a disease, but that I was infected. Nice eh? He said also that it came from a spirit of religeous pride (that an actual spirit was involved). He also asked me alot about my religeous history to find the source of what might be an "open door." The thing is, he meant it out of care. I have no ill will toward him. In fact his nakedness causes me to have more compassion.

[worm]

I really do not understand why God would want me to go back to the doctrine he has taken me out of. bobby

Bobby...you missed the point bro...I NEVER said you must go back to the doctrine...but back to the people (if that is your calling yes Craig)

but what do I ask you is the calling of the overcomers?

once we are trained in the wilderness...our doctrine is sound, we cannot be swayed by ANYONE anymore...we have grown up

God calls us to be leaders...the head...not the tail...the shepherds must first learn how to follow before they can lead the sheep out...and the way we learn to follow is to learn to listen to His voice only when in "the wilderness", and how to know His voice from others voices

coming out is not the end...else what do we do then...sit and wait and be "spiritual" until we die or He comes again?