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Revelation 20-23 what am I missing here?
Kat:
Hi D. Patric,
Don't be too hard on yourself. We all have got a lot to learn and it takes more than being wise in this world, it takes lots of study and the Holy Spirit within to understand the Scriptures.
2Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
--- Quote ---I would assume those also thrown into the fire would be tormented(being thrown in general does not show any care or concern for something),
--- End quote ---
When you understand what the Lake of Fire is, you can understand that God does not cast people in because He doesn't care for them. The Lake of Fire is judgment that must be brought to the world.
2Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Ray has an whole article about the Lake of fire and WHO it is at this link http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
But what happens to those that must go throught this judgment? Here is the Scripture much quoted by Ray.
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The torments in the Lake of fire comes form those being painfully made aware of their sins and the process of being purged of them. It is not physical torments, but this is torments of the mind and soul. And as the Scripture above states "the world will learn righteousness."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
winner08:
D. Patric Hayes: There's no need to fret over such things as in not understanding revelations. It is just not meant to be at this time for you to understand. It might never be time. Then again only God knows. I have a hard time also with revelations. However instead of trying to understand something that is not meant to be for me at this time I try to consentrate on the teachings of Christ and try to learn the lessons that He taught, so that I may lead a full life. Mainly the Gospels and proverbs. This has great lessons in them, talk about learning some spiritual truths, wow ;). Anyways keep on searching you will fine what you need.
Darren
indianabob:
Friend Patric, danaman1
Having read your last message about the lake of fire may I suggest you read again Installment 16 the most recent article on the B T site.
It will answer most of your concerns about how folks will be treated in the judgment period, the purpose for it and what they will learn.
Below is the last few paragraphs from the article. Please consider investing some time in becoming familiar with it.
Thanks, indiana bob
CONCLUSION
In today's world of Christendom, it is hardly admitted that the life of a Believer is to be one of tribulations and trials, pain and suffering, sorrow and death. It is rather taught that Believers are to be healthy, wealthy, worldly, and wise. After all, who wants to live a life of "dying?" If the Christian life of overcoming is such a great life, why not live it FOREVER? No, our goal is to GET OUT OF THIS LIFE.
Yes, there is joy in knowing that our suffering and trials, and FIRE, is producing something of eternal value, but the process is not the goal. Look at Paul's life:
THE TRIALS THAT PAUL SUFFERED:
FROM: II Cor. 11:23-28).
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;
in labors more abundant,
in stripes [blows] above measure [in excess, inordinately, exceeding reasonable limits],
in prisons more frequent,
in [perils of] deaths often.
five times received I forty stripes save one.
Thrice was I beaten with rods,
once was I stoned,
thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
In journeys often,
in perils of waters,
in perils of robbers,
in perils by mine own countrymen,
in perils by the heathen,
in perils in the city,
in perils in the wilderness,
in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
In weariness and painfulness,
in watching often,
in hunger and thirst,
in fasting often,
in cold and nakedness.
Beside those things that are without... daily, the care of all the churches.
All of these things took place over a period of about 25 years in Paul's life. How great was his normal day? Without the hope laid before him, he would not have endured such pain and abuse as he outlined for us in II Cor. 11. Like it or not, here is our lot in life as Believers:
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For consider Him that endured such contradiction [strife, disobedience] of sinners against Himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives. If ye endure CHASTENING, God deals with you as with SONS ; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not SONS" (Heb. 12:1-8).
We are on a road that leads to son-ship. We are to be THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD (Yah I know, it's a little over my head too). See: John 1:12, Rom. 8:14, Rom. 8:19, Phil. 2:15, I John 3:1 & 2. Do we think that such a task can be accomplished with little or no effort? If we are not on the road to son-ship, then we are spiritual ********! I for one don't desire to be a spiritual *******. One cannot be a "Son" and be drunk on worldly materialism, filled with pride and vanity, consumed with self-aggrandizement, and hell-bent on personal "free will," and presume to be on the road to son-ship.
The heat, pressure, and fire, that God afflicts upon His called and chosen Elect to produce the godly character befitting sons of God, the Church calls curses of the Devil. Even as you sit and read the words of this Installment on hell, God is bringing spiritual heat, pressure, and fire into your life. You can either reject it by bringing out your Christian fire extinguisher, or you can let God's Consuming Fire burn out the resistance and animosity toward His correcting Word. You can either live to self and die to God, or you can die to self and live to God. If God is dealing with you, it is a painful experience that will liberate and set free your very soul, spirit, and mind.
Let's rehearse these words of encouragement again:
"...let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Notice that Jesus endured the cross, and all that went with it, "...for the joy that was set before Him..." There is a purpose for what we do and for what God is doing through us. There is a great goal set before us. There is great joy NOW, but only because what is "set before us."
Don't think that I am immune, or indifferent, or ignorant to the trails and pain that my readers are enduring to become obedient unto death to our Lord. I am not teaching things of which I have no personal experience. This "spiritual fire" business is real. I experience it daily. I don't like it--it is extremely emotionally trying and difficult. But it is necessary. There is a saying in body-building: "No pain, no gain." It is equally true for building spiritual muscle.
But it is an enigma. It is a paradox. It appears to even be a contradiction. Paul stated with a clear and spiritual mind that:
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong" (II Cor. 12:10).
WHAT? Is Paul crazy? "For when I am WEAK, then am I STRONG?"
Yes, Paul is crazy; crazy like a fox! When we think that we are strong, then we are truly weak. But when we KNOW THAT WE ARE WEAK, then God can make us strong. Listen how perfectly the truly great apostles understood these marvelous truths of God:
"Humble yourselves [admit your weakness] in the sight of the Lord, and He shall lift you up" (James 4:10)
"Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time" (I Pet. 5:6).
Peter is one of my favorites. He likes to add "details." He adds to James statement by saying, "in due time." Yes, God will "lift you up," but not always today or tomorrow, but for sure, "in due time."
"But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses" (I Tim. 6:11-12).
Dave in Tenn:
Patric, in partial answer.
I don't think anybody is suggesting (not least of all Ray) that the Lake of Fire experience will be a pleasant sunday afternoon.
Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
I'm as ignorant as you as to whether or not there is 'a verse' that says we will come out of the LOF changed. But there are 66 books of the Bible that uniformly teach that all of God's creation will be made complete and plenty of 'verses' that talk about us being changed and conformed to image of His Son. We might be shaky on the 'mechanics' (you and I) but there can't be any doubt as to the end result.
There's no way with a cursory once-through read on a topic so filled with symbolism that we are likely to get it. But if you had asked either of us a year ago (or a few months ago) whether we would be where we are, my answer at least would have been, "Hell, no!". Some of it comes in a flash (relatively speaking). Some of it comes with more study and experience.
I remember taking an algebra class in Junior High School. I looked at the end of the book and remember thinking, "There is NO way I'm going to learn this stuff." But precept built on precept, and understanding on understanding and I wound up doing OK with it. This is not that different. Sure, light bulbs have to flash over our little heads from time to tiime, but mostly we have to keep plowing.
On a side note: Before I joined the forum, I read a lot of posts. I read that almost ALL the members posting thought they had either 1. Little hope of being the in first ressurection 2. Only hope that they would be or 3. No hope that they would be. I don't recall anybody when asked saying, "Yes, I am sure of my Election."
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on July 27, 2008, 11:07:37 PM ---
I'm as ignorant as you as to whether or not there is 'a verse' that says we will come out of the LOF changed.
--- End quote ---
The following from 1Corinthinians Chapter 3 does not specifically state what exact condition one emerges from the LOF except for being saved, which is hopeful enough for me! ;)
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Peace,
Joe
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