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Author Topic: I am a clean slate  (Read 5190 times)

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EKnight

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I am a clean slate
« on: July 26, 2008, 07:54:57 PM »

When reading Ray's papers, I notice that he is not so much teaching as refuting other teachings.  This causes problems for me because I don't really have any preconceived notions about most things.  In fact, I have not even heard of most of the heretics that he refutes.  So when I am reading something and think I am understanding, Ray talks about the teachings of Christendom.  I don't want to know that, I only want to know the truth.  Is it not possible to learn truths without first knowing the lies?  I mean, I don't need to be "deprogrammed".  I am a clean slate that needs to start from scratch.

Is there anyone else here that feels this way? 

If it sounds as if I am being negative or arrogant,  I truly am not.  I am just frustrated with being unable to learn because of my lack of prior knowledge. (and I know I have said something like this in other posts, sorry).

For instance, I was reading the LOF part IV and began to understand a little better about the "harvests" that I have heard you all talk about before.  I knew nothing about feasts or harvests.  I don't even know who Benny Hinn is or  Dr. Kennedy or Hagee.  I had never heard of them until I came here.  I would not be able to find the televangelists on my TV if I tried.  I thank God I don't know them and never did and never will.

And also, I have never heard of the Lake of Fire before coming here either.  Do Christians think the LOF is Hell?

Can anyone relate?  :-[

Eileen
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 07:56:51 PM by EKnight »
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Paul

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2008, 08:24:56 PM »

Is there anyone else here that feels this way?

Yes. I'd love to just hear the Gospel explained from a pure premise.

[Of course, I understand the majority of his readers are coming from an ET perspective.]
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 08:26:15 PM by Paul »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2008, 09:03:07 PM »


Yes. I'd love to just hear the Gospel explained from a pure premise.


Paul, that's offensive. Are you suggesting that Ray's teachings are unpure?

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"[1] preach with sound doctrine and [2] refute those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version]

Quote
[Of course, I understand the majority of his readers are coming from an ET perspective.]

What is 'ET'?

Dennis
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 09:05:19 PM by Dennis Vogel »
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KristaD

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2008, 09:09:59 PM »

I get what you're saying, I think it's kind of the same way for my husband. He was not taught much about God or anything from a christian perspective so a lot of that is all new to him. He doesn't read Ray's stuff on his own though, I kind of tell him everything and he has his own relationship with God and reads his Bible. I'm sorry I can't relate myself because I did unfortunately learn most of the heresy during my short time in babylon but I thank you for starting this thread as I had never thought about it that way before and will meditate on that and what I should be saying to my husband. Perhaps I should just leave out all that negativity. I agree that if you don't know those awful lies it would be nicer to hear the gospel in all it's glory without all the refuting, but sadly so very many people have been indoctrinated that I think Ray is right and most productive in focusing on "exposing" them. Perhaps there are others that we don't know about that focus on teaching clean slates like yourself. I sure don't know of any though. :-\
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Paul

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2008, 09:57:11 PM »


Yes. I'd love to just hear the Gospel explained from a pure premise.

Paul, that's offensive. Are you suggesting that Ray's teachings are unpure?

No, but I see how that comment could've been taken that way. I just meant the clean slate Eileen's talking about. Like Ray preaching the Gospel to someone who's never even heard of Hell or Christianity before. Just a thought. I love the Lake of Fire Series.

What is 'ET'?

Eternal torment.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 10:09:04 PM by Paul »
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EKnight

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2008, 10:02:26 PM »

I certainly understand Ray's reasoning and I am not suggesting he change anything, I am just expressing how it effects my quest for understanding.  And to be honest, I only came to this revelation (realizing why I was getting confused) today while re-reading LOF IV.  I was kind of hoping that maybe there was someone here who was at one time like me and then they would be better able to explain some things to me.  Often times I find that answers to my posts also include the presumption that I know things that I really don't.  Ugh, I hope I am making sense.  It is not usually so difficult for me to put my thoughts into words. ???

Eileen
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OBrenda

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2008, 11:06:44 PM »

Often times I find that answers to my posts also include the presumption that I know things that I really don't.  Ugh, I hope I am making sense.  It is not usually so difficult for me to put my thoughts into words. ???

Eileen


You are explaining yourself very well.  It makes complete sense that you are sometimes confussed.  Similar to when we first learned together what IMO & IMHO means. ;D

It is important for US to understand that you have a foundation of being Catholic which has some, but not all the false teachings of Other Churches.  I'm sure the mods will direct you to anything they think will help.

I think just you alerting us will help allot.  You may also be used by God to help others that join with similar backgrounds. 

Hang in there, and keep asking the questions till we ALL understand.
Brenda
 
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2008, 11:43:10 PM »

Eileen.  I understand you as well, and have encountered several articles and parts of articles that do for me what you are describing.  (your question is really at the heart of what I posted asking about 'lost people'--so you said it better than I could.  LOL)

It helps to remember what OBrenda pointed out--that there are a LOT of contradictions, strife and enmity BETWEEN churches on many of the points Ray raises in exposing them.  Not all of us have been exposed to all of them.  I have found, though, that Ray is never slow to 'tell the truth' after he has smashed the lies--assuming he hasn't already told it by the time the hammer falls.  ;)  If it wasn't a lie that I believed, then it is still valuable in the long run for the equipping of the saints.

I personally am still grappling with all the ramifications of the foundational truths, so 'being equipped' with the whole armor is a little much to bear at times when I haven't even got my uniform on straight.  ;)

Keep plugging.  Take what God means for you to have NOW.  I am sure you are not alone.





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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2008, 12:00:12 AM »

One other thought.  If Ray made it simple, we'd be tempted to take it on as a creed.  He's struggled for uncounted hours--we need to struggle as well.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Samson

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2008, 04:30:12 PM »

When reading Ray's papers, I notice that he is not so much teaching as refuting other teachings.  This causes problems for me because I don't really have any preconceived notions about most things.  In fact, I have not even heard of most of the heretics that he refutes.  So when I am reading something and think I am understanding, Ray talks about the teachings of Christendom.  I don't want to know that, I only want to know the truth.  Is it not possible to learn truths without first knowing the lies?  I mean, I don't need to be "deprogrammed".  I am a clean slate that needs to start from scratch.

Is there anyone else here that feels this way? 

If it sounds as if I am being negative or arrogant,  I truly am not.  I am just frustrated with being unable to learn because of my lack of prior knowledge. (and I know I have said something like this in other posts, sorry).

For instance, I was reading the LOF part IV and began to understand a little better about the "harvests" that I have heard you all talk about before.  I knew nothing about feasts or harvests.  I don't even know who Benny Hinn is or  Dr. Kennedy or Hagee.  I had never heard of them until I came here.  I would not be able to find the televangelists on my TV if I tried.  I thank God I don't know them and never did and never will.

And also, I have never heard of the Lake of Fire before coming here either.  Do Christians think the LOF is Hell?

Can anyone relate?  :-[

Eileen

Hello Eileen,

                 You mentioned that you don't have preconceived notions about falsehoods(not an exact quote) and don't want to know about Heretical Teachings, but only The Truth. Ray explains this in one of his series; Free Will Myth or maybe 2006 September Conference, but hears the point regarding " Lies " versus Truth. In order to fully appreciate and differentiate between a concept of fact and have understanding, we must know it's opposite. Examples: Good & Evil(Remember the account Genesis regarding the Tree); Hot & Cold; Truth & Falsehood; Light & Darkness; Sickness & Good Health; Tall & Short; Pride & Humility, etc. To fully understand and distinguish these concepts, we need to experience and learn about their opposites. How would you fully appreciate Truth, if you weren't exposed to it's opposite; Lying. Many of us have experienced blatant Religious Hypocrisy, Double standards, half-truths and clear deception. This is part of our training and disipline provided by Our Heavenly Father towards our becoming Spiritually Perfected. If all you ever knew was Truth in all areas of Life, including Religion; when confronted with falsehood, you would, or at least could be fooled by the Father of the Lie(John. chapter 8). The deception is all around us in Politics, Religion, Commerce, etc and it's rank, but it helps us to appreciate Proverbs. 3:5-7, you can look it up, if you like.

                           Just think of all the concepts and different things that have their opposites and you will find, you wouldn't be able to fully understand them without their opposites.

                   Hope this helps, Your Brother, Samson.
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EKnight

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2008, 05:11:28 PM »

Hi Samson,

I understand the concept of needing to know they opposite of one thing in order to appreciate another.  I guess I just  feel like Ray's teachings presume that all that are reading came from the lies, and having not come from that background myself, it makes the learning that more difficult.  In other words, I have to first learn all the lies and then learn the truth. 

I guess this taps into what Dave in Tenn was asking in one of his posts about having to go into babylon first before being able to come to the knowledge of the truth.  I guess then the answer to his question is yes, one must first be deceived before they can see and hear the truth.

Quote from Dave's post:

This is not so much a hypothetical question as it is theoretical.

Ray says, and there is general agreement here, that for one to 'come out of Babylon' she or she must first be IN Babylon.

What does this mean for your regular run-of-the-mill 'lost' person, unbeliever, sinner without Christ, person who has never heard the gospel (or church heresies for that matter)?

Is this covered anywhere specifically?  If not, do you have any wisdom to share?


Don't get me wrong, there are things I learned in the Catholic church that Ray has refuted, but not to the extent of the lies of Christendom.  Catholics just "add to" the word, and I just threw that stuff away anyhow.  I guess I knew in my heart a lot of what Ray teaches before I got here.  Kinda like like at the end of the Wizard of Oz where they tell Dorothy she had the means to go home all along.  I knew God was a merciful God, I just didn't know the details of the truth and that is what I want to learn here. 

I just want it to be enough that I know there are false doctrines and false prophets and teachers.  I am not criticizing Rays ways but rather stating that for me, it only serves to distract and confuse me more.

Eileen  :)
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mharrell08

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2008, 05:37:46 PM »

Hello Eileen,

In your original post, you use Ray's teaching on the harvest from LOF 4 as an example of his exposing Christendom's contradictions while teaching scriptural truths. And you also state in your newest post about how these exposes within his teaching "only serve to distract and confuse me more". Is this correct?

If so, did you still not understand Ray's teaching on the harvest in this LOF paper? How are Ray's exposes confusing to your understanding?

Also, I remember you having a thread about potentially starting a bible study, correct? Would it not be to your benefit to know the heretical lies that most Babylonian members believe in so you can scripturally refute them? Particularly since Ray does most if not all of showing how Christendom consistently contradicts itself.

Also, the Catholics do a lot more than 'add to' the word of God...but that's another subject for another day. I'm pretty sure if you started a thread in Off-Topic discussions and asked members to show you exactly how Catholics distort the word of God, it would be eye-opening.

Samson made a wonderful point about knowing contrasts and as Genesis teaches us that knowing good/evil or contrasts is KNOWLEDGE.

My main point is, maybe trying to look at Ray's extensive teaching with the Christendom exposes as a blessing in disguise. Yes the papers can be somewhat long, but full of spiritual treasure. And with all the teachings, you will grow in much more wisdom compared to just "knowing there are false doctrines, prophets, teachers".

Hope this helps,

Marques
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indianabob

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2008, 06:27:21 PM »

Eileen,

I may be over simplifying here but from my perspective you seem to be saying that you have never been fooled by anyone that you trusted only to find that they were misguided themselves and were taking you along the same pathway to error.

Let me try an example using stories believed by some others.  I hope I have the facts in order, if not please correct me:

We believe that Jesus is without sin.  The Roman Catholic church teaches that Mary needed to have been conceived without sin also in order to be the "mother of God".  The Bible doesn't teach this idea, so where does it come from?
When you were Catholic did you wonder about this idea?  Did you teach it to others in the form of casual discussion?

The R.C. church teaches Transubstantiation, that the blessed bread and the wine used in the communion service actually changes into the body and blood of Jesus via a miracle and that is why they are careful not to spill any of the emblems. Did you ever question that teaching when you were attending?

These are pretty basic things to think about once a person begins to compare the Bible with the traditions of churchmen.

I'm just curious and trying to think of a way to explain why I asked questions in years past and found the answers unsatisfactory.

Regards, Bob




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EKnight

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2008, 07:42:26 PM »

I guess I am not explaining myself well enough.  Suffice it to say that the truths taught here are overwhelming enough for me without having to learn the untruths as well.  I understand the reasoning I am just saying it's too much for me to process and those of you who have learned the false teaching have a head start on me.  And rarely does Ray touch upon the teachings of the Catholic church. 

I am keenly aware of the teachings of the Catholic Church i.e. Mary being born without sin (but that is because they also believe in "original" sin) and transubstantiation, and purgatory and limbo and no meat on Fridays during lent, and all the sacraments.  All these are what I am referring to when I said "add to".  And like I said before, I didn't really believe in that anyway.  I was what they call a "cafeteria Catholic".  Therefore, I don't feel indoctrinated, hence the subject, clean slate.

Eileen

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Phil3:10

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2008, 08:57:12 PM »

Eileen,
It would be wonderful to only have the real truth preached to all from the beginning. However, Paul was the first to warn us of the problems of untruthfulness and the Bible is full of such warnings. Absolute truth is probably not possible today and I do think that Ray would be the first to say so. I often wonder if the real love of GOD for HIS creation had been taught from the beginning what this world would be like. I think there would be far fewer wars, hate, pain and suffering if HIS real truth was always taught. I know that GOD has a remnant that HE has preserved but I am sure they are few in number and probably would not wish to associate with the lost and dying world of modern day Christianity/churchanity.
I personally feel the Catholic Church is the mother church of all of Christendom with the exception of GOD'S elect remnant. One of the reasons I give for not wanting to be called a christian is that the Catholic Church is also labeled as christian.  Almost all we see outside Bible-Truths and maybe a few others that believe in universal salvation preach lies and deception.  It is man that corrupts but GOD planned it this way and HE has HIS reasons that one day HE will reveal.
Suffice it to say that all of us would like to hear only the pure truths from the mint house of GOD. However, they like the pearl of great price must be searched for and require due diligence on our part. Ray's primary purpose is to expose the lies and deception in all of the binding religions, most especially Christianity. I personally feel Ray is teaching real truth but due to the nature of his audience he must parallel it with the untruths and deception that prevail today. For me, it was unlearning the false truths and accepting the real truths of GOD. Ray revealed and the SPIRIT of GOD through Ray's teachings enlightened my new found beliefs.
Coming out of a Catholic Church I feel you are most indoctrinated as I feel they are the most pagan of the so-called christian churches.
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winner08

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2008, 03:42:05 AM »

Eileen everybody has given you good advice. The question here is what to do about it. I really don't have anything to add that would help you. Personally I love the way Ray refutes the deceptions of the other so called Christians. Then afterwards Ray will  show us the truth and exactly where to find it in scripture. So we are not just to believe what he says, rather what Christ has said. I maby like you was baptized catholic and through grade and middle school I was raised catholic. I can say in my humble opinion that they just do not add to, they flat out make up fairytales of purgatory, praying to the saints so they can intercede on our behalf. an immortal soul going to heaven or hell upon death,praying to statues,praying to Mary mother of Jesus, St.Jude for the sick children, They do have a saint for ever occasion. The big one confessing to a priest so they may forgive your sins. Act of contrition. Eating a wafer in place of the body of Christ. Forgive me for carrying on I just think they do a bit more than add on. They flat out lie. Easter, Christmass,Good Friday,lent. Have I missed any?? OH YEA!! god on earth actually  I believe he lives in Rome. I could be wrong. There is alot of deceiving going on and I would like to know what they are so that I might know the truth.


                                       Thanks,

                                          Darren

P.S. sorry for going on a rant,
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Heidi

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2008, 08:31:51 AM »

Eileen, I believe that Ray once answered someone in an email as to why some of his papers where so long.....his explanation was that he needed to cover everything so as not to get to many emails and questions asked etc. 

I do understand your view though.....but Ray has to do it the way he is doing it.

Heidi...
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hillsbororiver

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2008, 11:04:13 AM »


 In order to fully appreciate and differentiate between a concept of fact and have understanding, we must know it's opposite. Examples: Good & Evil(Remember the account Genesis regarding the Tree); Hot & Cold; Truth & Falsehood; Light & Darkness; Sickness & Good Health; Tall & Short; Pride & Humility, etc. To fully understand and distinguish these concepts, we need to experience and learn about their opposites. How would you fully appreciate Truth, if you weren't exposed to it's opposite; Lying. Many of us have experienced blatant Religious Hypocrisy, Double standards, half-truths and clear deception. This is part of our training and disipline provided by Our Heavenly Father towards our becoming Spiritually Perfected. If all you ever knew was Truth in all areas of Life, including Religion; when confronted with falsehood, you would, or at least could be fooled by the Father of the Lie(John. chapter 8). The deception is all around us in Politics, Religion, Commerce, etc and it's rank, but it helps us to appreciate Proverbs. 3:5-7, you can look it up, if you like.

                           Just think of all the concepts and different things that have their opposites and you will find, you wouldn't be able to fully understand them without their opposites.

                   Hope this helps, Your Brother, Samson.

Very true Samson, great post!

Yes, Ray does get into detail in many articles in exposing the heresies of all the leavened churches and denominations, if only there weren't so many lies and deception out there the articles could be so much shorter!  ;)

Eileen, I am certainly not making light of your point, it is well taken but we must consider that just having sound scripturally based articles would in fact be only half the picture, knowing that the "father of lies" is very resourceful and often appeals to our ego is invaluable information. Satan can take what appeals to us most and we of ourselves can create our own Babylon, which is confusion.

Remember what Christ said to His apostles;


Mat 16:6  Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

What I have learned through much observation over the years is that there have been many who come through here and become convinced of their "spirituality" to the point that they tend to receive His Word as mere suggestions relying more and more on their "feelings" and direct communication with (what they perceive to be) the Holy Spirit. This has left some wide open to the dung of man made demon inspired doctrines that may sound compelling but are the ways of death. They appeal to our ego and tug at our heart and often attempt to make someone feel naive for having so much trust in His Word, after all the spirit is in us, we have the mind of Christ, how could we be led astray?

The serpent has been using variations of his original temptation in the Garden throughout the history of the world, "forget about what God said, listen to your desires, go with your feelings, you shall be all the wiser for it." (I am paraphrasing here).

We must always be on guard and part of that is knowing and then recognizing the enemy's strategy, just as in war, football, politics, business, we must understand where our competition is, what he is thinking and his method of implementation.

   
Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Why is it necessary if we believe in our hearts we are capable of instinctively knowing the difference between truth and lies?

Pro 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 
 
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Heidi

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2008, 03:48:50 PM »

Excellent post Joe..."Satan can take what appeals to us most and we of ourselves can create our own Babylon, which is confusion."

I pray that God will guard my heart and mind and that by His grace alone I remain humble and have a teachable spirit.  It is very scary to think that we can create our own Babylon.

Love
Heidi
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Phill B

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Re: I am a clean slate
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2008, 09:52:32 PM »

This is my first post.

I have enjoyed reading this thread.

I have not read all of Rayís material yet, but Iím well on the way. Perhaps I am naÔve, but Rayís interpretation of Gods message makes good sense to me, honest and truthful.

Yes I can relate to your comments Eileen, although I would not say I was a clean slate.

I was born 50 years ago, raised in a dysfunctional family. There were many words yelled by my parents - God wasnít one of them. My father was a drinker. My mother addicted to prescription pills. My parents argued a lot. They blamed each other for the shortage of money. There was abuse in our family. I left home young, angry and confused. I completed a carpentry apprenticeship. I have coughed and spluttered my way through life, always working hard though. Creating wealth would solve my problems I figured. Pot was my best friend for almost 20 years. It anesthetized my feelings. About seven years ago somebody said if you donít forgive your parents you will always be angry. I hadnít spoken to my father for 25 years. I wished him dead. The concept of forgiveness was insanity to me. When will my father apologise to me I asked. Thatís not the point. You clean up your side of the street and trust God to take care of the rest. Trust God, but I donít trust anybody. However, being desperate, I gave it a go. It wasnít all smooth sailing, and only after praying, I fronted him. I listened to his story. He later wrote me a letter. He said he was sorry and that he loved me. I did the same. Shortly after I posted this letter to him I walked alone along a beach. I literally felt a huge weight lift off me shoulders. What a miracle - the first of many. I now saw him not as a monster but somebody with a problem. I learned that itís in forgiving that we are forgiven. And those distant spiritual truths are far more powerful than my silly thinking. The enemy had me fooled for a long time. So I then attended 12 step programmes, for about 3 years. This was a good stepping-stone for it, amongst many other good things, introduced me to the concept humility. I have not any taken drugs, alcohol or cigarettes since. Gods grace Ė incredible! I started reading the Bible about 4 years ago. Shortly after, tiring of the 12 steps programmes, I tried attending the local Church(s), for about 3 months. It just didnít work for me. Although I enjoyed some aspects including the singing, their message, and environment, seemed shallow, like a hollow log. I even tithed a couple of times, much to my shame.

So here I am today reading and learning from Ray. So although I do not relate as well as others on this forum to exposing the heresies concept I do enjoy the whole learning experience embedded within Ray teachings. Ray mentioned on one of his tapes that he was not aware of anyone coming out of Babylon that did not first get corrupted the Church - so did I come out of Babylon Ė I donít know?

One thing I do know. I have peace today, and I feel God directing me here.

Phill B
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