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Author Topic: Pagan Christianity  (Read 13724 times)

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AK4

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2008, 02:13:33 PM »

But also Brenda you are right,  Dont judge people if they do celebrate and do these things.  IMO i just think that this is one of things that makes the difference between part of the called and the chosen
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2008, 03:57:07 PM »

Anthony, those outward things made no difference to Paul.  They also make no difference to Ray.  He's said more than once that he doesn't care whether people keep this day or that, are baptized or not, are circumcized or not.  It IS the higher things--the spiritual law--that matters.  God will deal with each individual at the level of their own understanding.  The mature grow out of these things.  The immature are fixated upon them.  Both are children of God.

For my little part, though I won't go point by point, I agree with David.  This agreement is in spirit not in argument.  My only admonition to David is to consider hard the taking of old covenenat law as the final word, and especially to placing that law on people Christ died to free.

I'm not fresh out of Babylon.  I took my 20 years in the World.  I am the prodigal returning.  My Father has laid out a huge feast (much of it in Ray and B-T and His word opened up from that foundation) and I can't be bothered with 1002 reasons to be miserable, or 1002 reasons to bash somebody over the head, or 1002 reasons to gloat that I know more than my preacher.

Understanding the origins of these heresies is NOT wrong.  But please SEE that it's NOT for everybody.  Those strong in concience and strong in faith ARE free to do this.  They will do it to honor God.  That list does not necessarily apply to every reader of this forum or every poster to this thread.  Judge your own self.  Can you 'learn' such stuff without fear of picking up belief?  Can you do it without seeing it as a form of Chirstian pornography--titillating material?  Can you do it with a fully maintained spirit of humilty?  Can you do it to honor God without thought to self?  Can you do it while not leaving off the weightier matters?  Are you led of your Lord to do this?

Here's how I judge myself.  I can't do ANY of the above.  I KNOW that I know I am not alone in that.  My concience is strong, and my faith is too.  I'd heard years ago about Church Steeples being remnants of pagan Phallic symbols.  I don't know whether or not that is true (and for the record, I don't even CARE, so I'd appreciate nobody directing PROOF at me).  I could walk into a steeple, climb the tower, ring the bell, eat a pork sandwich up there, wash it down with a little wine or beer and not be sinning.  Paul says I AM Blessed!  Those with a weaker concience couldn't.  My responsibility is for THEM.  At the very least, I'm not going to be inviting them on my church steeple picnic.   :D

I don't NEED to know, I don't WANT to know.  Our Father has WAAAAY more important work to do in me to clean out the filth of the pigpen, to help me into my new robes and rings and to recieve me as His son.  He may have other work for you to do.  All I can say to you is, be careful where you step.

OBrenda, I appreciate your post.  I really believe you 'get 'it'.  IndianaBob, we are well together in spirit (not just in argument).  I'm finding it a rather safe place to be there.  Love to ya.

Brenda, if thy tatoo offend thee, cut off thy arm.  You may be the only person to laugh at that.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

OBrenda

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2008, 05:07:00 PM »

Hi Anthony,

Your right I have to admit,...I could have worded my comments better when using the word "intentions". It is very true that most evil done by mankind, has been done by their warped sense of what is good! And your using Paul is a good example to find some understanding.  Believe it or not, I honestly believe that we all actually agree in this post! Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was.  What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.

Which is what I believe Krista and some others here have tried to express!  It is the "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" that they experienced when they came to understand that their particular religion had a foundation from pagan rituals.  That is one of the ways that God lead their steps to the truths taught here!  (I am just not prepared to questions Gods methods to bring his will about!)

And as Ray has taught us pay attention to the WORDS in a scripture....I don't think anyone is promoting inquiring after other Gods!...like enrolling in a monastery of the "Goddess of the Sun" somewhere.  And If anyone would be so foolish to do such a thing, who is to say God can't Shine a "Bright Light" down and knock them off a donkey?

My point about the Christmas trees, etc. As yet....I don't believe I'm wrong.
I just don't see how wearing a cross around my neck, enjoying a pretty decorated tree, wearing a wedding ring, makes me any less or more righteous.....my righteousness comes not from natural things, or even what I do or don't do....but only from Christ. 

So I respectfully disagree it has nothing to do with the chosen!

If we are speaking of sacrificing children, ect....that is entirely different, (that is an action)

I don't see evil in things like the pagans did.......But I do see it staring back at me in the mirror!

I do appreciate your passion Anthony, and I also admire it.
Brenda 


P.S. to Dave.... ;) ;D
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 05:14:25 PM by OBrenda »
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ciy

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2008, 06:01:42 PM »

 
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
James 4:17

Ponder on that for a while. 

CIY


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AK4

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2008, 07:20:49 PM »

Hi Brenda,

Sorry if i seemed strong in voice in that post, i wasn't trying to be that way and i wont be that way among fellow brethren---whew I've never said brethren before.

Quote
Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was.  What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.

Right on! I agree totally.  Now apply what you just wrote  to what you are thinking about christmas, christmas trees, the cross, etc. (you are already wearing the cross in your heart and mind. Why do you need to show anyone this proof?! I and probably everyone else here can see/feel it in your spirit).  Their man made, right.

Quote
I don't think anyone is promoting inquiring after other Gods!...like enrolling in a monastery of the "Goddess of the Sun" somewhere.  And If anyone would be so foolish to do such a thing, who is to say God can't Shine a "Bright Light" down and knock them off a donkey?
Amen Brenda

Quote
Anthony, those outward things made no difference to Paul.  They also make no difference to Ray.  He's said more than once that he doesn't care whether people keep this day or that, are baptized or not, are circumcised or not.  It IS the higher things--the spiritual law--that matters.  God will deal with each individual at the level of their own understanding.  The mature grow out of these things.  The immature are fixated upon them.  Both are children of

Dave
Sorry if i gave the impression that i was talking about baptism and all that stuff.  I was really just talking about christmas and easter, those holidays, not the Holydays.  (i don't know but i think Paul was stating this about the Jewish Holydays, not the pagan holidays, about observing special days) The communion of the catholics was just for the "intentions" thing.

CIY

The more i ponder on that verse it proves to me that what I'm saying is right. 
Add also Jas 4:4
  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Couldn't this also apply to appeasing to the world with its pagan traditions and holidays/holydays? (this verse has nothing to do with reading up on them)

To all
I also agree that we need to know what these pagan traditions were so we can come out of that Babylon fully and refute/expose it if it contradicts.  you cant do that about something you don't know, right.  Like Ray has said how can you know up if you never had a concept of down. How can you know whats true without knowing what is false.

Anyway respectfully to all

Anthony--p.s the same to you Brenda. I admire you passion too! :)
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2008, 08:41:54 PM »

Hi Anthony.  Only the first paragraph of my post was directly in answer to you. 

I have no doubt that knowledge of heresy is important to understanding the complete Gospel of the Kingdom.  Heresy itself is important to the Gospel of many called, few chosen.

Where my spirit bristles (not my anger) is in the impulse to impose an inferior and ultimately powerless Law on Believers attempting to follow a superior and all-powerful law...the Law of the Spirit of Christ.  Brenda doesn't wear a cross or put up a tree because she is breaking the law of sin and death.  Brenda is free to wear a cross or put up a tree because knowing the law of the Spirit means she knows these things mean NOTHING!  They have no power over somebody who is free.  They only have power over those convinced that these things have power.  If she did not wear a cross or put up a tree, it would add NOTHING to her relationship with Christ, and might even bring on it's OWN temptation to sin--self-righteousness, lack of faith, vanity, boasting.

That latter part goes with my earlier warning to those who think they are (or are now ready to be) teachers.  Without doubt Ray IS.  Others may well be.  Others most surely are not.  Judge yourself.

Maybe I sound like some sort of Libertine.  But try to understand that I have never been among people coming out of highly legalistic religious traditions.  So this 'strain' is new to me.  My observation is NOT that these legalistic traditions were wrong-headed and must now be replaced with RIGHT legalism.  My observation is that it was wrong in a Christian context to ever replace the Law of the Spirit with such inferior stuff, and it remains wrong.

I have way more to learn than I have learned already, and am open to correction (as always) but I'm not about to exchange my 'blessedness' for any law that hasn't been fulfilled by Christ.  Even if I knew all 1002 pagan origins, they have NO power over Christ in me.  They are dead.  They mean nothing.  Their purpose is served and spent on me.  Prayers for those still in Babylon for whom thier purpose is not yet dead.

This topic has occupied my mind for two days now, and I'm glad it has.         

   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

OBrenda

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2008, 10:00:04 PM »

Hi Anthony...I hope we are becoming quick friends here! :)

Sorry if i seemed strong in voice in that post, i wasn't trying to be that way and i wont be that way among fellow brethren---whew I've never said brethren before.

Don't be Sorry about being strong in voice, that has been admirable in all Men of God!  I was being very sincere when I said I admire your passion!

Quote
Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was.  What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.

Right on! I agree totally.  Now apply what you just wrote  to what you are thinking about christmas, christmas trees, the cross, etc. (you are already wearing the cross in your heart and mind. Why do you need to show anyone this proof?! I and probably everyone else here can see/feel it in your spirit).  Their man made, right.

YES!....I agree with you....if I wear a cross around my neck to tell others I'm a christian, or think of it as a charm for protection it is an Idol! However when I see a cross around someones neck or in a poster...it reminds me of the most important thing we can do in this moment, Surrender to what is the will of God! (as Christ Prayed not my Will)  I don't have a cross necklace, I certainly don't need one, or even desire to.  And at the same time I'm not resistant to wearing one! And I don't think I am better than someone who does, or is it any indication one way or another to how many stripes I will be getting ;D


CIY    The more i ponder on that verse it proves to me that what I'm saying is right. 
Add also Jas 4:4
  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Couldn't this also apply to appeasing to the world with its pagan traditions and holidays/holydays? (this verse has nothing to do with reading up on them)

So Anthony if the "World" is the Enemy, what did Jesus teach us about how we are to feel about our Enemy?

Matthew 5:43
You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,  so that you will become children of your Father in heaven, because he makes his sun rise on both evil and good people, and he lets rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous.  If you love those who love you, what reward will you have?
 
Please forgive me, as I can be dense sometimes....I didn't actually understand CIY position with the  scripture he shared ???  Sorry CIY

James 4:15
You do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead you should say, "If the Lord wants us to, we will live-and do this or that."  But you boast about your proud intentions. All such boasting is evil.  Therefore, anyone who knows what is right but fails to do it is guilty of sin.

Other than the obvious to me, It would be better to use the word "Heart" instead of "Intentions"! Thanks :)
 
1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Quote

That's all I was trying to share! Please forgive me to those I've bored... :-\
Brenda  ;D ;D ;D

P.S.  Darren I do agree with you history teaches us a valuable lesson about Mankind,  and the Scriptures teach us about the Sovereign Nature of God!
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 10:02:18 PM by OBrenda »
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AK4

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2008, 10:50:22 PM »

Dave,

I dont know what to say, I want to say you are right---and indeed you truly are.  But the other half wants to say you only half wrong (im not saying that i know more or anything like that b/c i dont. not in the least bit). And then i want to say your right again, because you are.  Confusing huh, yeah me too :-X :-X :-X.

You are right Dave, I agree about not imposing the powerless Law on believers.  The Law of the Spirit of Christ is far superior, so now my question is once you follow the Law of Spirit of Christ, is it still okay follow these holidays and other such things.  These things have no power over me that i know of, because once i learned their origin and learned the truth of them I was set free from observing them.  I really never liked christmas, trying to observe the Sabbath and the Holydays or especially anything that had anything to do with the catholic church.  But thats just me.  Once i learned the truth on these things, i was set free from them.  So TO ME i am totally free from them and TO ME the Spirit convicts ME not to follow these things that i have mentioned before.  
 
Thats where Col 2:16-23 comes in.

But here's another question that maybe you can help me with Dave or anyone out there--- Once one is following the Law of Spirit of Christ is it okay to observe any of those things because no one can judge you on it and if that is the case then wouldnt that make Col 2:16-23 so very different from person to person?  So what would be the ultimate commandment--- To each their own and let noone judge you?  It cant be that broad in my honest opinion there must be a fine line drawn by/made by Jesus.

Dave, great post. you have me struggling on this one.  I find scriptures to support both arguments.  Thank you for making search the scriptures trying to compare spiritual with spiritual.  As for now i can only pray for God to show me the full Truth

Brenda,

Of course, i love the conversations on here between you and me and everyone.

you posted your reply while i was typing up this one and that was a great post, and right also.  I think i stated it above (i've been typing this one post for like a hour now), great scriptures.  You have me too rethinking what i think is the full Truth.  Hopefully my eyes will be fully opened

Looking forward to yours and anyone elses response

Anthony

ps if i made no sense on this post im sorry,  my mind is getting flooded with so much now.--And thats a good thing :D

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Kat

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2008, 11:29:40 PM »


Mark 7:13  making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
v. 14  When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
v. 15  There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
v. 16  If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Think about what Jesus is saying here, "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him."  I think this is what Paul is saying also.

Rom 14:14  I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

So what I think this is saying is when you have the Spirit indwelling, then you are free to do 'anything'... because the Spirit will always be guiding you.  Also if you mess up then won't the Spirit be there to lead us to repentance as well.  So we should listen to the guidance of the Spirit in whatever we do.

John 14:15  "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
v. 16  And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
v. 17  the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
v. 18  I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2008, 01:11:09 AM »

Amen, Kat.  The scriptures you shared are a good match with Anthony's and Romans 14.


"...is it okay to observe any of those things?"  I'm assuming you mean the things mentioned in Colossions.  It's interesting that the chapter you referenced starts with the two most important 'observances' of the day...circumcision and baptism.  It's here that Ray gets scripture for his emphasis on 'circumcision without hands and baptism without water.'  Spiritual law recognizes both these observances as shadows and 'prophecies' of their true meaning. 

With circumcision, it is very clear from scripture that Gentile believers were no longer required to be circumcised in order to be accepted in the Faith.  In truth, they never were, but it took a while for that truth to sink in and to be recorded in inspired scripture.  Clearly, with this observance, it was "very different from person to person" in practice. 

These days...if a Jew were to come to Christ fully, he would have to know that circumcision is not required...but the deed was done when he was 8 days old and can't be undone.  The rest of us can come to Christ without ever being circumcised in the flesh.  BOTH have to be circumcised in Spirit, however, to come to a full knowledge of Christ and have His Spirit in them.  And women were never subject to circumcision and THEY can come too.  Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision in the flesh makes one Holy or not Holy.  Only circumcision in the spirit is of any value whatsoever.



Now suppose a man wanted to 'cover all the bases' and observe the physical ritual even with an understanding of the Spiritual.  It's possible for a man of any age to be circumcised...I suppose it's even possible for a man to be 're-circumcised'  (OUCH).  You ask, ""...is it okay to observe any of those things?"  It's the word 'okay' that is hanging me up.  It's not a sin to observe, but why would a man want to? 

I can think of a few reasons why he MIGHT want to.  There are surely others.

1.  His faith is weak.  He 'understands' but he just can't quite believe that Christ is sufficient. 

"...is it okay to observe any of those things?"  It's okay, but such a shame.  His sin is lack of faith, not observing or not observing 

2.  His conscience is weak.  Maybe he feels he deserves to make this sacrifice considering how low and base he is.

"...is it okay to observe any of those things?"  It is better for him to observe than to not observe, just as it is better for a man to marry than to burn.  ;)

3.  His Doctrine is wrong.  He's been convinced that this rite is necessary, or more Holy, or whatever and he knows no better.

"...is it okay to observe any of those things?"  For him, it would be a sin NOT to observe, because he believes in his heart this way.

But what if his reason is:  I will be circumcised to prove my superiority over these sorry/sinful/inferior 'other' gentiles?  Is it okay then?

Do any of those sound like they would come from a man who is mature in the Spiritual Law?

I don't believe we 'have it'.  I believe we are in the process of 'getting it' more and more and more.  Very different from person to person.

Paul started the 'chapter' with the MOST important observances of the day.  He goes on in the verses you reference to mentioning other things 'in this light'.  ...Matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day.  Was any of this more important than circumcision or baptism?

"Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day."  These are all shadows too. 

I'll admit to a complete ignorance of how these 'festivals and new moons' are made important in some churches, though I'm more familiar with 'sabbaths' and food and drink.  The only possible positive value I can see in any of these observances, beyond being the shadow of things to come they were desigend to be, is to maintain a 'community'.  Does that sound familiar? 

But if "He (who is puffed up and boasts of his spirituality) does not hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, which is nourished and held together by its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that comes from God." then why remain in that community?

And there's another picture of the body of Christ...different members, different offices, different gifts, same head--Christ.  "Very different from person to person.", in my opinion.

All I want to add is the reminder that the New Covenant is NOT according to the Old.  It's superior, and different by that definition alone, as well as in other ways.  That's good news for some of you coming out of these legalistic churches, I'm guessing.  For me too.

"So what would be the ultimate commandment--- To each their own and let noone judge you?  It cant be that broad in my honest opinion there must be a fine line drawn by/made by Jesus."

Dude, this one was easy!!   ;D

Matthew 22: 37  Jesus said to him, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."  38  This is the greatest and most important commandment.  39  The second is like it: 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.'  40  All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."

And then He launched into parables...and we all know what THAT means.

    

      



     


 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 02:09:11 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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OBrenda

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2008, 09:56:55 AM »

Amen Kat...Those Scriptures are Powerful and as they say speak volumes!

Some other Scriptures in Romans to what we are speaking of...

Romans 2:29
No, a person is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, brought about by the Spirit, not by a written law. That person's praise will come from God, not from people.

Romans 3:8
Or can we say-as some people slander us by claiming that we say- "Let's do evil that good may result"?
They deserve to be condemned!     (Sounds like some of Rays e-mail responses)

Hey Dave this might answer your question to: is it okay to observe any of those things?"
 
Are we Jews [keepers of the law] any better off?   Not at all!
For we have already accused everyone, both Jews and Greeks, of being under the power of sin.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 09:58:05 AM by OBrenda »
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Kat

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2008, 11:17:08 AM »


What I'm thinking is we do not need to concern ourselves with what the other person is doing.  As we will not have to answer for somebody else, only ourself.

Rom 14:10  But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
v. 11  For it is written:
       "As I live, says the LORD,
       Every knee shall bow to Me,
       And every tongue shall confess to God." 
v. 12  So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
v. 13  Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

It is the Spirit in those that He has chosen who will bring the unity of the body.  The spirit shows us what we should do. 

Eph 4:1  I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
v. 2  with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
v. 3  eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
v. 4  There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call--
v. 5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
v. 6  one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

All these physical things we are going through are temporary, they are to teach us spiritual lessons and do not matter overall.  That's why Paul said "there is nothing unclean of itself."  We need to be spiritually minded, not dwelling on the physical.

John 6:63  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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OBrenda

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2008, 07:55:10 PM »

Beautifuly put together Kat,
Having a "Motto" is probably carnial, especially when "Who God Is", is so Vast.
But these truths you wrote bellow just jumped out at me!
 

It is the Spirit in those that He has chosen who will bring the unity of the body.  The spirit shows us what we should do. 

All these physical things we are going through are temporary, they are to teach us spiritual lessons and do not matter overall.  That's why Paul said "there is nothing unclean of itself."  We need to be spiritually minded, not dwelling on the physical.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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AK4

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2008, 10:26:26 AM »

Hi Brenda Dave and Kat,

You guys are rightand great posts by all.  You guys got me "soul searching" and praying to God for the Truth, but let clarify my last post because this is really is got my spirit stirring and i want to know the  full Truth.

i came out of a legalistic type of babylon, who showed the paganism in the holidays of christmas and easter and the such.  Once i did more resarch on these holidays God open up my eyes to see just how much paganism is in christmas, easter, valentines day, halloween etc.  So in the legalistic type of babylon they didnt want you to observe the holidays but to observe Gods Holydays.  I was like okay that makes sense.  then after God opened my eyes after reading Rays writings I learned i didnt need to observe the Holydays either. so thats where my question comes in and that scripture someone posted comes in---

Jas 4:17 and Jas 4:4

and

Once one is following the Law of the Spirit of Christ and knows the truths behind all these things whether they be  things from the Bible (Holydays) or things with their origins in paganism (the holidays), why would you want to observe ANY of those things?

the ultimate commandment thing i stated wrong, Dave your of course right on that, but  i was refering to subject we're talking about here.  Is it To each their own and let noone judge you on what you observe or not observe whether from the Bible or something with its roots back in paganism mixed in christainity?  It cant be that broad in my honest opinion there must be a fine line drawn by/made by Jesus on observing these things.  We know about Gods holydays whether or not to observe them, but christmas and the like...hmmmm? 

Dave nice post on reasons.  I personally am free from those things and dont give it any power.  I dont observe any of these things only because its my personal choice.  It doesnt make in any better or worse than anyone who does either of them.  It doesnt add one iota to my spirituality.  the only times i observe christmas and the like is when i am being respectful of whoever invites me to.  This is what Paul did on the Sabbaths and such to preach the Gospel if even inquired of him.

Ultimately i feel like you guys are right.  We are free to do these things.  Free-- without limit is what that means right, but we arent all the way free because we still have to follow Jesus' commandments.  So there's a limit.  So I guess you're right until you learn the truth right?  I guess the his Spirit will convict you either way and as long  as what convicts you and your not breaking it them you are free from it.  thats just my honest opinion.

what do you guys think?

With love and patience

Anthony

Ps-- Like you im just searching for the Truth.  And you guys got me meditating on this heavy.  Thanks ;)


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Kat

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2008, 01:21:15 PM »


Hi Anthony,

I can see what you are saying,

Quote
Once one is following the Law of the Spirit of Christ and knows the truths behind all these things whether they be  things from the Bible (Holydays) or things with their origins in paganism (the holidays), why would you want to observe ANY of those things?

That I believe is the ultimate goal of a believer... BUT.  As you also stated, 

Quote
the only times i observe christmas and the like is when i am being respectful of whoever invites me to.

So there is circumstances that you have that may cause you to be involved in these things to some degree, right?  Every person's life is a set of intricate and complicated circumstances and just like you may have a situation that gives you an exception to what you would see as the best thing to do, other may too.  We do not know what is in each person's heart and why they are doing something. 

If the Holy Spirit is indwelling, then I believe that a person would have a hard time getting all wrapped up in participating in these worldly holidays or Holy days (I was in WWCG for 15 yrs, so I've done a lot of Holy Day observance).  If they did I think the Holy Spirit would lead them to recognize how worldly it was and they would eventually want to stop. 

But some may be just like you and only continuing to participate because of respect for their loved ones feelings.  So for those, the participation would not be to satisfy a worldly lust and if their heart be in the right place, it would be meaningless and not a sin?

I'm saying these things so that you can see why I say it does not matter and we should not judge one another in these matters.  We do not know all the in's and out's of anybody's situation, so why judge?  I think maybe this is what Jesus was telling Peter when he asked about John.

John 21:21  Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?"
v. 22  Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 04:08:54 PM by Kat »
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AK4

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2008, 02:21:00 PM »

 Kat. 
In my heart i knew you guys were right, Dave and Brenda too.  The more i replied to you guys post the more truth you guys kept showing me on the matter until all the scales were shead off.  I just wanted to make sure i present my argument as thorough as possible so i could get clear understanding.  And thanks be to Jesus he used you guys to show me the truth.

Thanks again

Anthony
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2008, 02:51:38 PM »

Anthony.  This is over my paygrade, so all I can do is the best I can.

As far as I know, Jesus never gave a commandment concerning pagan holidays.  His ministry was mainly to Jews following (to greater or lesser extent) the laws of moses and the leviticial laws, and their own religious 'tradtion' laws as well, etc.  Those he encountered who were NOT jews He always compared to Jews (and favorably).  The ones who kept these laws BEST (the Scribes and Pharisees) were the ones who Christ found to be the WORST.

Concerning Christ's commandments, let's stick with the weekly Sabbath and hopefully other parellels can be drawn.  He Himself was accused of breaking this Law by doing forbidden work on this day.  Did he sin?  Of course not.  Did He break 'THEIR' Sabbath?  Absolutely.  But He didn't break God's Spiritual Sabbath.  In his explanation to the Pharisees, it might be said that He not only broke their Sabbath but He smashed it it to bits.  It might also be said that He pointed the way toward the True meaning of the Sabbath and didn't end it at all, rather extended it from one day a week full of 'Thou shalt nots...' into seven days a week full of 'Thou Shalts...'

That sounds great, but neither the OLD Sabbath or the NEW Sabbath can be kept in the flesh.  Christ prophecied a day when His Spirit would be living in us and He accomplished this (among a universe of other things) by His death and resurrection.  Now, we are to die to ourselves and be raised in Him.  It's no longer us living, but Christ.  Even this can't be accomplished by our flesh.

If Christ is living in us (more and more and more, as I believe) then Christ is able to do all the things that He is....love, holiness, peace, joy.  I am fully persuaded that I cannot do these things.  I have evidence from my OWN life and don't even NEED scripture to know that I am not capable of any unsullied good work and AM capable of the worst sin imagineable.  Whatever good there is in me, IS Christ's spirit by definition.  I have to die more and more and more (as I understand it) so He might live.  And He knows the true and righteous and profitable meaning behind ALL the shadows of law and prophecy.  And He is teaching the spiritual, true meaning and will continue to teach it to us.

The Law of the Spirit is not a set of regulations.  The Kingdom of God is the kingship of God.

I know you didn't want to hear more about holy days, but as Kat said, it's not the physical we should be concerend with, it's the Spiritual.  That IS the commandments of Christ.


As for Pagan influence in Christian holidays, in the times of the Apostles when the scriptures were being written they were struggling with this too.  Now the Gosepl was open to those beyond the Jewish tradition and outside of the enclave of Jersusalem and environs.  Greeks, Asians, Romans, Africans and all kinds of people were coming to believe.  They brought their own 'traditions' that clashed with the Jews.  They ate unclean meat, they had their own false prophets among them, they had a way of thinking that didn't include the centuries of exposure to and teaching of the Jews and the Old Testament.  That sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Again, I'm over my paygrade here, but it seems to me that Rom.14, your references in Collosians, Kat's and Brenda's all are dealing with this.  In dealing with it, they are also all pointing to a Higher Law.  There is more than one 'commandment' flowing through this vein in the New Testament.  Some seem aimed at the 'pagan tradition' believers (primarily, DON'T SIN), some seem aimed at the 'jewish tradition' believers (primarily DON'T Judge what isn't sin or peole who aren't sinning).  Both 'groups' are under both of those commandments...we are One.  In a sense it's been like OUR discussion...different traditions reaching for a common and higher Truth.

Now we're stuck with Christmas and the like, a holiday celebrated by Christians, and those without Christ as well...both sinners and Heathens.  Heathens?  Absolutely.  I've been in Buddhist countries that celebrate Christmas when most of them couldn't tell you the difference between Santa and Christ.  That's how far Christendom has come.

But really, we can scratch those distinctions.  God's 'distinction' in his house is between the Elect and Spiritually Minded and the Called and carnally minded.  As far as I'm concerened, the carnally minded can celebrate Christmas all they want.  At least it's one day a year that they might have a thought for the coming of Christ into the world.  If I am invited, I'd go because none of that stuff has any power over me.  I don't like Chritmas either, and it has nothing to do with 'paganism'.  It has to do with commercialism and 'enforced' good spirits.  I like to feel good when God wants me to feel good.  I want to remember the coming of Christ every day, and ultimately have no need to remember because He is in and with me every day.

If others can turn this holiday on its head and make it worth celebrating as a special day--with or without tress, mistletoe and all those other powerless trinkets--then I'm committed to not judging them for what isn't a sin.  I don't believe it's a sin any more than Samson mentioned calling today Wednesday is a sin.

If others can teach the church without sin, then more power to them and God's blessings.  If I had oppurtunity and ability, I'd rather use the 'IN' that christmas gives and preach Christ to the heathens.

The Spirit of Christ is love and other things that flow out of love.  If your love is a concernd warning, then give it.  If it's a bit of fellowship with loved ones in the midst of dead and powerless trinkets, then do it.  You'd walk over glass for them, I believe you can walk under mistletoe.

What you yourself do is according to your faith, concience, and Doctrine.  As we put all of that under the Law of the Spirit and the Kingship of God it is up to HIM to lead us.  The Head leads, not the hand or the foot.

I've already identified myself on this board as an a@@, and a dumb one as well.  So for the love of God, don't do what I say.      

« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 03:26:31 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Roy Monis

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2008, 01:49:18 PM »

Hi! Anthony and all.

My first impression is that this is a lure to buy the books and other junk. They don't give any idea of what the contents of the books are, which makes me wonder whether it is worth my while pouring my money down the drain Why not let Benny Hinn have it instead he needs it to build another mansion for his big brother JESUS when He decides ro show up. It appears as though this site is just another of those promotions for another form of belief. Unlike Bible-Truths which gives you everything for free including membership try and get the same from Frank Viola and he'll tell you what you can do in no uncertain terms.

That's the difference between money grabbing and an honest freewill offering. Best to stick where you are and give your money if you have a surplus above your needs to Ray from whom you are getting the TRUTH for the first time in YOUR LIFE? Don't you think he deserves it for all the obvious hard work he has put into it for our benefit, more than those charlatans?

Come on now leave them alone and be right, we have God's truly inspired servant we don't need anymore misfits or we may as well go back to Egypt/Babylon.

It's time to drop this thread as it just doesn't belong here.

God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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Brian

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2008, 07:11:26 PM »

Roy UK,
It was not my intention to lure anyone into buying a book or other junk. Nor did I intend to start a thread concerning Christian liberty. One does not need to purchase a book in order to read it. I am sure, as adults, we are familiar with the public library system! Is one not available in the UK?

I simply asked if anyone had read the book and gave an opinion about the book. The book in question has useful information for those who want to know more about "church" history and where it got certain practices from.

These well documented facts can show those who are still in Babylon that they are, in fact, still in Babylon. As far as Mr. Viola telling us what we can do in no uncertain terms I have no knowledge of.

Why the apparent animosity toward Frank Viola? Did you ask him to send you a book?
Do you get paid to do a job? What if you didn't get paid, would you still do the job or would you find some other way to feed your family?

The reason that money is charged for the purchase of a book is that it cost money to produce a book. And yes, the Author(s), publisher, printers and others get a small part of the purchase price.

I am sure Larry Ray Smith doesn't begrudge anyone for charging for there time or work.

Larry Ray Smith has chosen to do this for free. I'm quite certain he has been led to do this. I am also certain he did not do his carpentry job for free or on the basis of donations. Nor did he start BT on the basis of donations. He started and funded it with his wages. I think also the wages of a few others too. ( I'm not entirely clear on this part though).

If one wishes to give toward the efforts of Larry Ray Smith, then by all means give. I know he will truly appreciate it.

Please explain why you think this thread has no place here. Even though it was not my intention to start a thread about Christian liberty it was none the less  discussed. God used it to speak to AK4 and I'm not sure how many others.

Love in Christ
B
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AK4

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2008, 07:34:13 PM »

Hi

Yes Brian is right God was using them to help open my eyes. 

Quote
These well documented facts can show those who are still in Babylon that they are, in fact, still in Babylon

I Couldnt have said it better.  Some people who has read some of Rays papers shouldnt just take his word for it.  they need to found out if he's telling the truth or not--on scripture and on pagan things. 

Roy i think as long as we are all talking about the Lord, every bit conversation is ok as long as we are staying in like mind, keeping an open mind for the truth, and helping each other in the Word.  And i know you believe that too.  Yes it can be taken too far but i dont think it has reached that yet in this thread. 

Peace
Anthony
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