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Author Topic: Pagan Christianity  (Read 11865 times)

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Brian

  • Guest
Pagan Christianity
« on: July 30, 2008, 06:36:32 PM »

Has anyone read Pagan Christianity by George Barna and Frank Viola?
This book contains thousands of traditions borrowed from various pagan cultures. The authors expertly trace the origins of traditions, rituals, ordinances to the pagan religions and cultures from which they came. Every Christian should read this book. It is a good start on this topic but I don't think they have gone far enough.
Have a happy and be sage
Brian
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OBrenda

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 08:23:34 PM »

Don't believe I've read that one, what I have learned from other sources is that they can trace most things back to Egypt?
Did this book do the same?
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David

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 08:27:11 PM »

With all love and respect Brian, I think we should refrain from reading such material.

Deu 12:30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’

1 Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


Ex 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Deu 6:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;

And there are dozens of other scriptures commanding us not to enquire, go after, serve or have anything to do with other gods which are pagan gods and traditions. The Church systems we have come out of have taught us more than enough pagan traditions, hocus pocus beliefs, blasphemies and heresies, without reading books about such things. I prefer to use my time to study Gods word, rather than to study pagan traditions.
You say that every Christian should read this book, my understanding of the scriptures I've posted here and the dozens more that are similar would suggest to me that NO Christian should read this or any other book relating to pagan religions and traditions.  

God be with you Brian.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:29:04 PM by David »
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KristaD

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 10:44:01 PM »

It sounds to me that the book is informing christians of the pagan roots of some of their beloved traditions like holidays and rituals in the churches not promoting pagan traditions. I don't see how reading that would be considered going after other gods. How are we to make sure that we do not go after, serve, inquire of or have anything to do with other gods and traditions if we don't know what they are in the first place? I certainly agree that we should not seek those things out or study them and that we should use our time to study God's word but what about those that do not know where the things they observe come from? What about those that don't realize all of the hocus pocus that is taught in the churches? Some people do not associate all of the references in the scriptures to modern day things and it takes another person to break it all down for them just like Ray has done for us with the teachings he has. I guess it really depends on the authors and their motives and beliefs and I don't know anything about them so I can't say much more than I think every christian should question traditions and observances and try to learn where they came from, if someone uses this book to do it that's fine. I learned it all by typing in "pagan christian holidays" into my search engine and finding lots of pagan sites where they laughed at the ignorance of christians about those things. I was not seeking out other gods, but simply trying to figure out who the Real God is. What I learned was another way that the god of churchianity did not line up with the God of the scriptures and it brought me closer to understanding Him and know who He really is. If I had been more mature perhaps I could have put the things together myself from the scriptures but that was how God had me do it at the time.
I get what you are saying but christians already "inquired after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’" and now those things are incorporated into the church's christianity. To truly leave babylon we must know what babylon is IMO.
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Brian

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 11:58:34 PM »


Here are some links to some of the materials that have been put on the web.
I hope you will prayerfully consider at least looking at these links.

*links no allowed*

Have a happy and be sage
Brian
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 12:39:04 AM by Kat »
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Samson

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2008, 12:29:32 AM »

Hello Brian,

                 Also, you can find the origins of the paganism in " Christianity " from the Book; The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop(former Catholic Priest), it was written sometime in the late 1800's, I have a copy. Thankyou for the information you provided.

                                          Regards, Samson.
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 12:53:05 AM »

I agree.  We must learn and know these things.  I think the scriptures quoted by David are commanding us not take interest or even respect these pagan teachings (How often have we heard that we must respect the religious beliefs of everybody?  Guess that includes the Al Qaeda.)  It makes it alot easier to expose pagan teachings when we realize the source of them.  I'm sure that Ray has put alot of time into the study of these pagan origins. 

So David, I think you should try the spirit in such matters and decide, is God really telling us to remain ignorant of the world's most common false teachings?.

By the way, I've heard some theories as to what those pointed objects and bells represent at the top of churches.  Sex and fertility are a big part of ancient paganism.
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Brian

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 12:54:46 AM »

"Links are not allowed if a site or article brings its own teaching or preaching. Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc."

No links?
I consider book reviews to be of the informational type.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 01:02:43 AM by Brian »
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Brian

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2008, 12:59:47 AM »

Hello Brian,

                 Also, you can find the origins of the paganism in " Christianity " from the Book; The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop(former Catholic Priest), it was written sometime in the late 1800's, I have a copy. Thankyou for the information you provided.

                                          Regards, Samson.
:)
Thanks Samson, I have actually read that one many years ago. It is well worth the time to read.

The Two Babylons
or The Papal Worship
Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife
By the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop
First published as a pamphlet in 1853— expanded in 1858
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 01:12:41 AM »


Hi Brian,

We are pretty strike about what links are allowed on the 'General' board.  As we keep it to what is taught at BT, but links to Bible sources would be okay.

We do allow links on the 'Off Topic' board as you posted from the rules; Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc.

It's our intention to keep false teaching off and allow informational type links. Quotes are one thing, but links to a site are difficult to check all that is there, especially multiple links.  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Brian

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 01:22:04 AM »

Thanks Kat,
I'll try to keep that in mind. How about "Wiki" sources?
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2008, 01:44:16 AM »


Hi Brian,

Well Wiki just makes info available as far as is known to be facts.  Facts are helpful.  It's the sources that teach their theology and doctrines.  We don't need to try and sort out other's theories, we're trying to learn what is taught at BT.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2008, 10:48:05 AM »

From The Lake of Fire Installment XVI—HELL: Part C

THE ORIGIN OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

EGYPT—THE GRANDSON OF NOAH

The Scriptural origin of Egypt is extremely easy to trace, though don’t expect many in the secular world to agree with this:

"The sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth" (Gen. 10:1).

"And the sons of Ham, Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan" (Gen. 10:6).

STRONG’S HEBREW DICTIONARY:

"H4714 Dual of H4693; Mitsrajim, that is, Upper and Lower Egypt: - Egypt, Egyptians, Mizraim."

There it is: "Mizraim," Noah’s grandson through his son Ham is EGYPT.

Egypt is mentioned from Genesis to Revelation--558 times (more than any other nation excepting Israel). This statistic alone should speak volumes to us regarding the importance of Egypt in God’s plan for humankind. It behooves us to learn more about the nation of Egypt, its history, its culture, and its religion. It has everything to do with understanding the many unscriptural doctrines of the Christian Church.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
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Sozo

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2008, 11:16:35 AM »

I agree.  In order to speak with others, we must know the source of where their pagan ideas come from.  Therefore, we need to study these things.  As you can see in some of the previous posts, Ray spends a good bit of time studying these things. 

One of the more recent studies that I did was on Ray's paper "The Lucifer Hoax."  In studying this, I learned a lot about the origin of the word, the origin of the belief in the fall of Lucifer, etc.  I learned about Zoroastrianism and other popular religions and idea's prevalent around 500 BC.  In fact, I can easily defend my position against any scholar on this topic now.

Here is an interesting fact:  Scholars say that "Lucifer, son of the dawn" was translated from "Heylel ben Shachar".  Shachar was considered the god of the dawn in Zoroastrian mythology.  Then they go on to say that according to Isaiah 14:12, that Heylel was Shachar's son and tried to exalt himself above the gods, but was cast down.  So then, where is this idea found in Zoroatrianism or the Ugaritic text that references the fall of Heylel, son of Shachar?  Where is the name "Heylel" found in the Ugaritic text (Zoroastrianism).  Get this....it doesn't exist!  Scholars use our Holy Scriptures to support a pagan myth!  Heylel should have been translated as "yalal" which means to "howl".  The proper name "Heylel" was invented through the error of mistranslating one letter..."ell" instead of the correct "eill".  It's amazing just how much scholars don't know!  I just thought you guys might find that interesting.  :)

So yes, we need to study these things so that we can have an answer for others.
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Heidi

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2008, 04:35:29 PM »

Ecclesiastes 1:12-18 "v13, I devoted myself to much study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven.....v18, for with much wisdom comes much sorrow, that more knowledge the more grief."

I take note of all that has been said in this post....I do however strongly belief in my heart that we need to devote ourselves in that Word of God and what we learn here in BT.  How many hours can be wasted trying to understand Babylon when we could have spent time with God....so I think there is much wisdom in what both David and Kat had to say.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 01:48:20 AM by Heidi »
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David

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2008, 07:06:05 PM »



So David, I think you should try the spirit in such matters and decide, is God really telling us to remain ignorant of the world's most common false teachings?.



God puts us through the worlds most common false teachings, in the Church. So obviously we are not ignorant of such teachings. In Deuteronomy God is giving this command to His people that He has lead out of captivity in Egypt.
For me I think the word "darash/enquire" and all its definitions (frequent, ask, follow, question, search, seek) are clear enough. While there are so many things in Gods word I do not yet understand, I don't have the time to "enquire" after pagan gods and traditions. I hope and pray everyday that God is leading me out of Babylon, and cleansing my carnal mind of its teachings. Why would I wish to go back to that and study those teachings, their origins etc? 
In my experience, people that attack Christianity by using these teachings about pagan traditions usually use totally spurious references anyway, so a lot of the information is very unreliable.
There's a new age philosopher in Britain that draws crowds of thousands in theatres lecturing on the supposed pagan traditions that Christianity comes from, and just about everything he teaches is total drivel. The man is a total fraud, and yet because practically no one that listens to him has a clue whats actually in the Bible, he gets away with it. And most of his reference material comes from the very books that are being suggested here. I'm aware of what these frauds teach in their books, and most of it is total rubbish.......so for me, that spirit has been tried.
Thank you for your comments, I'll focus my time and study on the scriptures thank you.
God bless you.
David.
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Linny

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2008, 07:37:25 PM »

You know, I have been reading here and I think that perhaps there isn't a right or wrong answer regarding this topic.

I think that David is following his heart and his leading to not study these things.

But I also think that some of us are lead to study these things. Had I not spent the last year studying the history of the Catholic church and its very scary elements including their ties to Islam, my mind would not have been opened to Ray's teachings and be prepared to hear the truth about the church in general.

Perhaps God is preparing some of us to be able to speak about the origins of certain church doctrines (i.e. My BIL has his doctorate in Bible and is a pastor), while others of us won't need that information and will need to study elsewhere. Or it just isn't the season for them to study this.

We all have a different purpose and a different walk.  :)

Many blessings,
Linny
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KristaD

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2008, 07:52:37 PM »

Well said, Linny, and very true :D.
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psalmsinger

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2008, 08:01:44 PM »

I read this book and found it totally informative about the history of pagan rituals that have made it into religious services.  The book traces the religious practices that are accepted as the gospel truth in churchianity back to pagan worship.  It is an eye-opener to those who are being dragged out of babylon by God toward the real truth.  God uses what He will to break the power of religion...Amen!


Rest in the Lord, Barbara
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2008, 09:46:52 PM »

I was watching the Travel Channel on China.  In Xian province they have discovered thousands of terracotta soldiers who were to "guard' the emperor in his after life!  Sounds like Egypt to me.
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