> General Discussions
Pagan Christianity
AK4:
But also Brenda you are right, Dont judge people if they do celebrate and do these things. IMO i just think that this is one of things that makes the difference between part of the called and the chosen
Dave in Tenn:
Anthony, those outward things made no difference to Paul. They also make no difference to Ray. He's said more than once that he doesn't care whether people keep this day or that, are baptized or not, are circumcized or not. It IS the higher things--the spiritual law--that matters. God will deal with each individual at the level of their own understanding. The mature grow out of these things. The immature are fixated upon them. Both are children of God.
For my little part, though I won't go point by point, I agree with David. This agreement is in spirit not in argument. My only admonition to David is to consider hard the taking of old covenenat law as the final word, and especially to placing that law on people Christ died to free.
I'm not fresh out of Babylon. I took my 20 years in the World. I am the prodigal returning. My Father has laid out a huge feast (much of it in Ray and B-T and His word opened up from that foundation) and I can't be bothered with 1002 reasons to be miserable, or 1002 reasons to bash somebody over the head, or 1002 reasons to gloat that I know more than my preacher.
Understanding the origins of these heresies is NOT wrong. But please SEE that it's NOT for everybody. Those strong in concience and strong in faith ARE free to do this. They will do it to honor God. That list does not necessarily apply to every reader of this forum or every poster to this thread. Judge your own self. Can you 'learn' such stuff without fear of picking up belief? Can you do it without seeing it as a form of Chirstian pornography--titillating material? Can you do it with a fully maintained spirit of humilty? Can you do it to honor God without thought to self? Can you do it while not leaving off the weightier matters? Are you led of your Lord to do this?
Here's how I judge myself. I can't do ANY of the above. I KNOW that I know I am not alone in that. My concience is strong, and my faith is too. I'd heard years ago about Church Steeples being remnants of pagan Phallic symbols. I don't know whether or not that is true (and for the record, I don't even CARE, so I'd appreciate nobody directing PROOF at me). I could walk into a steeple, climb the tower, ring the bell, eat a pork sandwich up there, wash it down with a little wine or beer and not be sinning. Paul says I AM Blessed! Those with a weaker concience couldn't. My responsibility is for THEM. At the very least, I'm not going to be inviting them on my church steeple picnic. :D
I don't NEED to know, I don't WANT to know. Our Father has WAAAAY more important work to do in me to clean out the filth of the pigpen, to help me into my new robes and rings and to recieve me as His son. He may have other work for you to do. All I can say to you is, be careful where you step.
OBrenda, I appreciate your post. I really believe you 'get 'it'. IndianaBob, we are well together in spirit (not just in argument). I'm finding it a rather safe place to be there. Love to ya.
Brenda, if thy tatoo offend thee, cut off thy arm. You may be the only person to laugh at that.
OBrenda:
Hi Anthony,
Your right I have to admit,...I could have worded my comments better when using the word "intentions". It is very true that most evil done by mankind, has been done by their warped sense of what is good! And your using Paul is a good example to find some understanding. Believe it or not, I honestly believe that we all actually agree in this post! Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was. What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.
Which is what I believe Krista and some others here have tried to express! It is the "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" that they experienced when they came to understand that their particular religion had a foundation from pagan rituals. That is one of the ways that God lead their steps to the truths taught here! (I am just not prepared to questions Gods methods to bring his will about!)
And as Ray has taught us pay attention to the WORDS in a scripture....I don't think anyone is promoting inquiring after other Gods!...like enrolling in a monastery of the "Goddess of the Sun" somewhere. And If anyone would be so foolish to do such a thing, who is to say God can't Shine a "Bright Light" down and knock them off a donkey?
My point about the Christmas trees, etc. As yet....I don't believe I'm wrong.
I just don't see how wearing a cross around my neck, enjoying a pretty decorated tree, wearing a wedding ring, makes me any less or more righteous.....my righteousness comes not from natural things, or even what I do or don't do....but only from Christ.
So I respectfully disagree it has nothing to do with the chosen!
If we are speaking of sacrificing children, ect....that is entirely different, (that is an action)
I don't see evil in things like the pagans did.......But I do see it staring back at me in the mirror!
I do appreciate your passion Anthony, and I also admire it.
Brenda
P.S. to Dave.... ;) ;D
ciy:
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
James 4:17
Ponder on that for a while.
CIY
AK4:
Hi Brenda,
Sorry if i seemed strong in voice in that post, i wasn't trying to be that way and i wont be that way among fellow brethren---whew I've never said brethren before.
--- Quote ---Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was. What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.
--- End quote ---
Right on! I agree totally. Now apply what you just wrote to what you are thinking about christmas, christmas trees, the cross, etc. (you are already wearing the cross in your heart and mind. Why do you need to show anyone this proof?! I and probably everyone else here can see/feel it in your spirit). Their man made, right.
--- Quote ---I don't think anyone is promoting inquiring after other Gods!...like enrolling in a monastery of the "Goddess of the Sun" somewhere. And If anyone would be so foolish to do such a thing, who is to say God can't Shine a "Bright Light" down and knock them off a donkey?
--- End quote ---
Amen Brenda
--- Quote ---Anthony, those outward things made no difference to Paul. They also make no difference to Ray. He's said more than once that he doesn't care whether people keep this day or that, are baptized or not, are circumcised or not. It IS the higher things--the spiritual law--that matters. God will deal with each individual at the level of their own understanding. The mature grow out of these things. The immature are fixated upon them. Both are children of
--- End quote ---
Dave
Sorry if i gave the impression that i was talking about baptism and all that stuff. I was really just talking about christmas and easter, those holidays, not the Holydays. (i don't know but i think Paul was stating this about the Jewish Holydays, not the pagan holidays, about observing special days) The communion of the catholics was just for the "intentions" thing.
CIY
The more i ponder on that verse it proves to me that what I'm saying is right.
Add also Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Couldn't this also apply to appeasing to the world with its pagan traditions and holidays/holydays? (this verse has nothing to do with reading up on them)
To all
I also agree that we need to know what these pagan traditions were so we can come out of that Babylon fully and refute/expose it if it contradicts. you cant do that about something you don't know, right. Like Ray has said how can you know up if you never had a concept of down. How can you know whats true without knowing what is false.
Anyway respectfully to all
Anthony--p.s the same to you Brenda. I admire you passion too! :)
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