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Pagan Christianity
Dave in Tenn:
Hi Anthony. Only the first paragraph of my post was directly in answer to you.
I have no doubt that knowledge of heresy is important to understanding the complete Gospel of the Kingdom. Heresy itself is important to the Gospel of many called, few chosen.
Where my spirit bristles (not my anger) is in the impulse to impose an inferior and ultimately powerless Law on Believers attempting to follow a superior and all-powerful law...the Law of the Spirit of Christ. Brenda doesn't wear a cross or put up a tree because she is breaking the law of sin and death. Brenda is free to wear a cross or put up a tree because knowing the law of the Spirit means she knows these things mean NOTHING! They have no power over somebody who is free. They only have power over those convinced that these things have power. If she did not wear a cross or put up a tree, it would add NOTHING to her relationship with Christ, and might even bring on it's OWN temptation to sin--self-righteousness, lack of faith, vanity, boasting.
That latter part goes with my earlier warning to those who think they are (or are now ready to be) teachers. Without doubt Ray IS. Others may well be. Others most surely are not. Judge yourself.
Maybe I sound like some sort of Libertine. But try to understand that I have never been among people coming out of highly legalistic religious traditions. So this 'strain' is new to me. My observation is NOT that these legalistic traditions were wrong-headed and must now be replaced with RIGHT legalism. My observation is that it was wrong in a Christian context to ever replace the Law of the Spirit with such inferior stuff, and it remains wrong.
I have way more to learn than I have learned already, and am open to correction (as always) but I'm not about to exchange my 'blessedness' for any law that hasn't been fulfilled by Christ. Even if I knew all 1002 pagan origins, they have NO power over Christ in me. They are dead. They mean nothing. Their purpose is served and spent on me. Prayers for those still in Babylon for whom thier purpose is not yet dead.
This topic has occupied my mind for two days now, and I'm glad it has.
OBrenda:
Hi Anthony...I hope we are becoming quick friends here! :)
--- Quote from: AK4 on August 05, 2008, 04:20:49 PM ---Sorry if i seemed strong in voice in that post, i wasn't trying to be that way and i wont be that way among fellow brethren---whew I've never said brethren before.
Don't be Sorry about being strong in voice, that has been admirable in all Men of God! I was being very sincere when I said I admire your passion!
--- Quote ---Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was. What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.
--- End quote ---
Right on! I agree totally. Now apply what you just wrote to what you are thinking about christmas, christmas trees, the cross, etc. (you are already wearing the cross in your heart and mind. Why do you need to show anyone this proof?! I and probably everyone else here can see/feel it in your spirit). Their man made, right.
YES!....I agree with you....if I wear a cross around my neck to tell others I'm a christian, or think of it as a charm for protection it is an Idol! However when I see a cross around someones neck or in a poster...it reminds me of the most important thing we can do in this moment, Surrender to what is the will of God! (as Christ Prayed not my Will) I don't have a cross necklace, I certainly don't need one, or even desire to. And at the same time I'm not resistant to wearing one! And I don't think I am better than someone who does, or is it any indication one way or another to how many stripes I will be getting ;D
CIY The more i ponder on that verse it proves to me that what I'm saying is right.
Add also Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Couldn't this also apply to appeasing to the world with its pagan traditions and holidays/holydays? (this verse has nothing to do with reading up on them)
So Anthony if the "World" is the Enemy, what did Jesus teach us about how we are to feel about our Enemy?
Matthew 5:43
You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, so that you will become children of your Father in heaven, because he makes his sun rise on both evil and good people, and he lets rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you have?
Please forgive me, as I can be dense sometimes....I didn't actually understand CIY position with the scripture he shared ??? Sorry CIY
James 4:15
You do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead you should say, "If the Lord wants us to, we will live-and do this or that." But you boast about your proud intentions. All such boasting is evil. Therefore, anyone who knows what is right but fails to do it is guilty of sin.
Other than the obvious to me, It would be better to use the word "Heart" instead of "Intentions"! Thanks :)
1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
--- Quote ---
That's all I was trying to share! Please forgive me to those I've bored... :-\
Brenda ;D ;D ;D
P.S. Darren I do agree with you history teaches us a valuable lesson about Mankind, and the Scriptures teach us about the Sovereign Nature of God!
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
AK4:
Dave,
I dont know what to say, I want to say you are right---and indeed you truly are. But the other half wants to say you only half wrong (im not saying that i know more or anything like that b/c i dont. not in the least bit). And then i want to say your right again, because you are. Confusing huh, yeah me too :-X :-X :-X.
You are right Dave, I agree about not imposing the powerless Law on believers. The Law of the Spirit of Christ is far superior, so now my question is once you follow the Law of Spirit of Christ, is it still okay follow these holidays and other such things. These things have no power over me that i know of, because once i learned their origin and learned the truth of them I was set free from observing them. I really never liked christmas, trying to observe the Sabbath and the Holydays or especially anything that had anything to do with the catholic church. But thats just me. Once i learned the truth on these things, i was set free from them. So TO ME i am totally free from them and TO ME the Spirit convicts ME not to follow these things that i have mentioned before.
Thats where Col 2:16-23 comes in.
But here's another question that maybe you can help me with Dave or anyone out there--- Once one is following the Law of Spirit of Christ is it okay to observe any of those things because no one can judge you on it and if that is the case then wouldnt that make Col 2:16-23 so very different from person to person? So what would be the ultimate commandment--- To each their own and let noone judge you? It cant be that broad in my honest opinion there must be a fine line drawn by/made by Jesus.
Dave, great post. you have me struggling on this one. I find scriptures to support both arguments. Thank you for making search the scriptures trying to compare spiritual with spiritual. As for now i can only pray for God to show me the full Truth
Brenda,
Of course, i love the conversations on here between you and me and everyone.
you posted your reply while i was typing up this one and that was a great post, and right also. I think i stated it above (i've been typing this one post for like a hour now), great scriptures. You have me too rethinking what i think is the full Truth. Hopefully my eyes will be fully opened
Looking forward to yours and anyone elses response
Anthony
ps if i made no sense on this post im sorry, my mind is getting flooded with so much now.--And thats a good thing :D
Kat:
Mark 7:13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
v. 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
v. 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
v. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
Think about what Jesus is saying here, "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him." I think this is what Paul is saying also.
Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
So what I think this is saying is when you have the Spirit indwelling, then you are free to do 'anything'... because the Spirit will always be guiding you. Also if you mess up then won't the Spirit be there to lead us to repentance as well. So we should listen to the guidance of the Spirit in whatever we do.
John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
v. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
v. 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
v. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dave in Tenn:
Amen, Kat. The scriptures you shared are a good match with Anthony's and Romans 14.
"...is it okay to observe any of those things?" I'm assuming you mean the things mentioned in Colossions. It's interesting that the chapter you referenced starts with the two most important 'observances' of the day...circumcision and baptism. It's here that Ray gets scripture for his emphasis on 'circumcision without hands and baptism without water.' Spiritual law recognizes both these observances as shadows and 'prophecies' of their true meaning.
With circumcision, it is very clear from scripture that Gentile believers were no longer required to be circumcised in order to be accepted in the Faith. In truth, they never were, but it took a while for that truth to sink in and to be recorded in inspired scripture. Clearly, with this observance, it was "very different from person to person" in practice.
These days...if a Jew were to come to Christ fully, he would have to know that circumcision is not required...but the deed was done when he was 8 days old and can't be undone. The rest of us can come to Christ without ever being circumcised in the flesh. BOTH have to be circumcised in Spirit, however, to come to a full knowledge of Christ and have His Spirit in them. And women were never subject to circumcision and THEY can come too. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision in the flesh makes one Holy or not Holy. Only circumcision in the spirit is of any value whatsoever.
Now suppose a man wanted to 'cover all the bases' and observe the physical ritual even with an understanding of the Spiritual. It's possible for a man of any age to be circumcised...I suppose it's even possible for a man to be 're-circumcised' (OUCH). You ask, ""...is it okay to observe any of those things?" It's the word 'okay' that is hanging me up. It's not a sin to observe, but why would a man want to?
I can think of a few reasons why he MIGHT want to. There are surely others.
1. His faith is weak. He 'understands' but he just can't quite believe that Christ is sufficient.
"...is it okay to observe any of those things?" It's okay, but such a shame. His sin is lack of faith, not observing or not observing
2. His conscience is weak. Maybe he feels he deserves to make this sacrifice considering how low and base he is.
"...is it okay to observe any of those things?" It is better for him to observe than to not observe, just as it is better for a man to marry than to burn. ;)
3. His Doctrine is wrong. He's been convinced that this rite is necessary, or more Holy, or whatever and he knows no better.
"...is it okay to observe any of those things?" For him, it would be a sin NOT to observe, because he believes in his heart this way.
But what if his reason is: I will be circumcised to prove my superiority over these sorry/sinful/inferior 'other' gentiles? Is it okay then?
Do any of those sound like they would come from a man who is mature in the Spiritual Law?
I don't believe we 'have it'. I believe we are in the process of 'getting it' more and more and more. Very different from person to person.
Paul started the 'chapter' with the MOST important observances of the day. He goes on in the verses you reference to mentioning other things 'in this light'. ...Matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day. Was any of this more important than circumcision or baptism?
"Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day." These are all shadows too.
I'll admit to a complete ignorance of how these 'festivals and new moons' are made important in some churches, though I'm more familiar with 'sabbaths' and food and drink. The only possible positive value I can see in any of these observances, beyond being the shadow of things to come they were desigend to be, is to maintain a 'community'. Does that sound familiar?
But if "He (who is puffed up and boasts of his spirituality) does not hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, which is nourished and held together by its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that comes from God." then why remain in that community?
And there's another picture of the body of Christ...different members, different offices, different gifts, same head--Christ. "Very different from person to person.", in my opinion.
All I want to add is the reminder that the New Covenant is NOT according to the Old. It's superior, and different by that definition alone, as well as in other ways. That's good news for some of you coming out of these legalistic churches, I'm guessing. For me too.
"So what would be the ultimate commandment--- To each their own and let noone judge you? It cant be that broad in my honest opinion there must be a fine line drawn by/made by Jesus."
Dude, this one was easy!! ;D
Matthew 22: 37 Jesus said to him, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." 38 This is the greatest and most important commandment. 39 The second is like it: 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."
And then He launched into parables...and we all know what THAT means.
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