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Faith
AK4:
Hi FalgnOn,
Just a quick post. We have no free will, but we do have choice. God doesnt have us hanging from a string so to speak. He just puts us in a situation to make the choice. And if you think about it, He puts us in that situation where we could not choose anything but what He wanted. We didnt have the free will to do it because God put a cause there, but we did have a choice but it just that God made it where YOU will choose what he wanted.
Lets look at your post. God caused everything in your life to happen the way it has happened so you would choose to type that post. You chose to do it, but God caused it. You can choose to be inert after you learned you have no free will and all is of God or you can choose to be proactive in your persuit to follow Gods commandments. God caused this feeling in you, but you make the choice. And still what you choose is exactly what God had planned in the first place.
You can kind of say God planned everything to be in the end all will glorify Him and give him thanks and praise. If you choose to be inert, when you come out of the LOF/second death, resurrection you will be so happy that God gave you another chance at life, (You will probably have to reflect back to this same post in the LOF) you will give Him praise.
Dave in Tenn:
Hi. I have felt and expressed this same sense of inertia you are describing. In some ways I still do. What has helped both my understanding and 'action' is the recognition that what we DO, Pray, Obey, Believe today IS HOW God determines our tommorrow.
Ray teaches that it is specifically the foreknowledge of God (an aspect of his Soveriegnty, but not the full package) that smashes 'the concept' of our free will. The fact that God KNOWS what what all our CHOICES will be doesn't mean that these choices shouldn't be made. Just as it was necessary for Jesus to choose to Die in order for us to be forgiven (as absolute a 'pre-ordained' event as can be imagined from Scripture) it's also necessary for US to choose (both rightly and wrongly) for God to act to fulfill His will.
This is a huge concept and understanding it doesn't come overnight. I certainly am struggling hard with it. But, for whatever it's worth, I'm just walking in whatever light I have, learning, obeying, living, being filled with His Spirit, stumbling, sinning, repenting, moving on.
You already understand that God is not the great vending machine in the sky waiting for us to supply the right coinage and press the right button to grant our desires. (The REALLY 'spiritual' believe He's the a Tremendously HUGE and Loving vending machine in the sky waiting for us to supply the right coinage and press the right button to grant our desires.)
I'm only just beginning to understand that I am the one more like a vending machine. He's put His faith and His Spirit in me. He's pressing all the right buttons on me to get out of me what HE desires.
I hope some of this helps. I hope some of it helps ME as I continue to grapple with this. For now, my choice is to live in the light I have and seek more light.
Kat:
Hi Falgn0n,
--- Quote ---Well, what has He promised?
--- End quote ---
This is from ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) that will give you a good idea of the promises from the NT.
In the New Testament these promises are founded on, and regarded as having their true fulfillment in, Christ and those who are His (2Co_1:20; Eph_3:6). The promise of the Spirit is spoken of by Jesus as “the promise of my Father” (Luk_24:49; Act_1:4), and this was regarded as fulfilled at Pentecost. The promise of a Saviour of the seed of David is regarded as fulfilled in Christ (Act_13:23, Act_13:32, Act_26:6; Rom_1:2; Rom_4:13; Rom_9:4).
Paul argues that the promise to Abraham that he should be “heir of the world,” made to him before circumcision, is not confined to Israel, but is open to all who are children of Abraham by faith (Rom_4:13-16; compare Gal_3:16, Gal_3:19, Gal_3:29).
In like manner the writer to the Hebrews goes back to the original promises, giving them a spiritual and eternal significance (4:1; 6:17; 11:9, etc.).
The New Testament promises include manifold blessings and hopes, among them “life,” “eternal life” (1Ti_4:8; 1Ti_6:19; 2Ti_1:1; Jam_1:12),
the “kingdom” (Jam_2:5),
Christ's “coming” (2Pe_3:9, etc.),
“new heavens and a new earth” (2Pe_3:13), etc.
For “promise” and “promised” in the King James Version, the Revised Version (British and American) has frequently other terms, as “word” (Psa_105:42), “spake,” “spoken” (Deu_10:9; Jos_9:21; Jos_22:4; Jos_23:5, Jos_23:15, etc.), “consented” (Luk_22:6), etc.
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--- Quote ---He has already pre-ordained what will be in my life tomorrow, what I'm going through now and what the end of it all will be.
I find myself completely inert, and totally unable to find any hope in this life - all I do now, is sort of "hang on" and hope for the best - there is no way for me to know what the end of a matter will be, what the purpose if my trial is, there is no point in pleading with God for understanding, either.
He is Sovereign over every detail of my life (right?) all that I am and do is by His design, how then can I think that I have the power to, through faith or prayer or whatever other means I can think of, change things in my life (wether physical, financial or spiritual)?
--- End quote ---
Actually you do know what the end of the matter will be;
1Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be all in all.
All of humanity are to become subject to God and be His children. But first you have to experience all that you need to learn in this life.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
v. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
So to become His children we have to "be like Him" and purify ourselves. This is part of this experience while we are in the flesh, the Elect are going through the purifing process in this life, for the rest it will be in the Lake of Fire.
Understand that this life has a great purpose, we are learning about good and evil, first in the physical carnal sense. For a few He is leading to understand the spiritual truth now in this life, but all will come to this knowledge eventually.
Ecc 1:13 ...it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Now God does work all things (Eph 1:11), but you are the one who will experience these things. It is your experiences that teaches you both good and evil and it is through these experiences that God builds character in us. The world is filled with contrasts that we learn from, by living and doing and seeing these things, we gain a physical knowledge of them.
At some point God will move us on to learning about the spiritual things, but first it is the physical (1Co 15:46). So what I'm saying is these experiences that we are going through in this life are very important, indeed essential. So it will avail you a great deal to seek His will (by study of His Word and prayer) and do it.
Here is an email that speaks about this.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#character -------------
God is SPIRIT. God is interested ONLY in spiritual things. All this physical creation is not something that God takes great pleasure in--it is but a means to an end. Well, what does He want then? He wants CHILDREN! SPIRITUAL Sons and Daughters in HIS VERY IMAGE!
But, how does He get them? Create them? Yes, CREATE them. But how does He create them. Instantly? No. To be in the IMAGE of God means that we will have the very same CHARACTER AND LOVE of God. Character and Love cannot be created instantly; it can only be developed over a period of time under severe pressure and duress. And so God creates severe pressure and duress, which produces GODLY CHARACTER. Imagine creating "patience," INSTANTLY? Why the very thought is self-contradicting. Patience by its very nature means that something must be WAITED FOR even though it is desired NOW.
God knows what He is doing. Now then, there is a second part to all this. We ourselves would never ever really appreciate the qualities of character, virtue, and love, that we will possess if we did not have to "sweat blood" to get them. There is no virtue that you can name that is not the result of overcoming some form of evil. And so this physical, human, temporal existence is as beneficial for US, and it is to GOD.
Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
Falgn0n:
So, basically what you guys are sayin is: "Yup, you're right - there is nothing you can do about it."
Everything is going to play out exactly has God has planned it, and in the end the end it will have been for a purpose, though I see it or not, realise it or not, believe it or not. Whatever His purpose is, I can get glimpses of it from the scriptures:
1. Faith
2. Hope
3. Love
4. Godly character (even if only at the end of the LOF experience, after He brings about repentance in me)
5. Knowledge of both Good and Evil (and their effects on me)
6. His purposes with me (and everybody else) are "eternal/spiritual" in nature, and have literally nothing whatsoever to do with the temporal (temporary) experiences now.
So then, the answer to my original question would be as follows:
"No, there is not the principle of "applying" faith and/or prayer to a situation to bring about a desired result.
Faith has an entirely different nature and purpose than that, ie: to provide Strength and hope to hang on in spite of the difficulties until God completes the work He began and fulfills the purpose he intended."
Thank you all so much for you replies
[move]Falgn0n
Kat:
Hi FalgnOn,
--- Quote ---So then, the answer to my original question would be as follows:
"No, there is not the principle of "applying" faith and/or prayer to a situation to bring about a desired result.
Faith has an entirely different nature and purpose than that, ie: to provide Strength and hope to hang on in spite of the difficulties until God completes the work He began and fulfills the purpose he intended."
--- End quote ---
That is true, but there is much more to it. When you are given the gift of grace, which is divine influence from God upon our hearts. This grace motivates us and we have a great desire to serve and please God. It's not "just hanging on in spite" of everything, but to love learning and doing the will of God.
Here is a few excerpts from the June Bible Study, which is a really good study on 'Saved By Grace Thru Faith.' I think it will be helpful.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html -------
Christ says if you call Me Lord and Master, if you believe that, that’s faith…believing. If you believe that I am your Lord and Master, why don’t you do what I say? You see that? Faith is doing.
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There is one other aspect to this thing of grace. We saw it a little bit in Hebrews 3:12 that says, “… an evil heart of unbelief…” Now you all understand that in the Bible when it talks about believe, that’s the verb. Faith is the noun. Faith and believe are the same Greek word, they’re the same. What is faith? It means to believe. If you believe, you have what? Faith. They are both the same word, one is a noun, one is a verb, that’s the only difference.
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Well guess what? Grace is a gift, but it’s got to be USED. Listen when something influences something, that means it does something. If you are inspired about something, you either think or write or do something, that’s the proof of the inspiration. So if something influences you it makes you think, say, do, work or something, are there is no influence. We just read that faith is divine influence upon the heart and that grace teaches us, the same that judging chastens us. It’s the same Greek word. It’s interesting it says in Eph. 2:8, “for we are saved by grace….” Well that’s great, that’s wonderful (period). No, no period, comma, “….THROUGH FAITH.” Well shucks, we’re saved by grace….through faith, okay. Well what does that mean? ‘Through’ is a channel.
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That’s the way grace and faith is. Grace is this influence, but faith is the channel and a channel always does something, it channels something - shows motion - shows a destination. So there’s a destination to being divinely influence by God on your heart. That’s the grace and that’s free, it’s a gift. But it doesn’t mean there is nothing to be done. It’s like my wife’s exercise bike, it’s a gift, it’s free, but it’s meant to be used, you see.
So faith is the channel and faith is believing. So you just have to believe, that’s something in your mind, that’s simple enough. I accept your free gift to save me and I believe it, that’s it, good, all done. No, not quite. Because we read, “ The sum of Your word is truth…” (Psalms 119: 160(CLV). You have to put it all together.
In Luke 6: 46 Christ says, “Why call you Me Lord, Lord.” Listen, that’s faith. If you call Him Lord, it means you believe He’s Lord, right, that’s faith. So He says, why do you pretend to have faith in Me, by calling Me Lord, but you don’t do what I say? See it’s a false faith, “…you do not do what I say.” It is a contradiction to say, you have faith and you don’t do anything. Notice the rest of this verse in Ephesians.
Eph 2:8 for by grace (a gratuitous gift - divine influence upon the heart) are you saved through faith(believing and doing God‘s will); and that (faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
v. 9 not of (our) works, less any man should boast (you boast when you do your own works).
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship (His achievement - His works),
Do you get that? Where it says “not of works,” but “for good works” Wait a minute is that a contradiction? No, “not of (our) works” but “for (His) good works.” There are works, they’re just not ours. But we are of His workmanship. Workmanship has the word ‘work.’ The Concordant translates it ‘achievement.’ When you want to achieve something it takes work. Who’s doing the work here? God is doing the work. What is that work? Divine influence upon the heart and then you do things.
Eph 2:10 “… created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has afore ordained that we should walk in them.”
So there are works.
Rom 8:28 “And we know that God WORKS all (things), together for the good…” Verse 29 “….predestined us to be conformed into the image of His Son.”
That is the whole thing. What is the purpose of works? To be conformed into the image of His Son. What image is that? The image of God. So what is it that God is creating humanity in? His image. Was it completed? No, it was not good, it was not so. But it will be one day. One day it will be so and it will be good. God is changing the carnal physical human mind into His spiritual divine mind.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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