What is required of a disciple?

[SteveB]

A disciple is a student. I for one am certainly a student of Jesus Christ. All of Christ’s elect are His disciples to whom this verse applies:

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
This verse gives the lie to the false doctrine called the ten second sinners prayer. Christ makes this statement to “those Jews which believed in him.� one of the greatest false doctrines in the Adversary’s arsenal is the twisting of Christ’s admonition to be merciful in judgment, and twisting it into a doctrine that forbids God’s church from “judging the things which are within.� Here is that much distorted scripture:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Paul tells us clearly that we had better put the leavening of false doctrines and sin out of our midst. But the Adversary has the entire “historical orthodox Christian church� convinced that heresy in God’s church is perfectly acceptable. The mantra of all ecumenical minds is “Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials.� Exactly what is ‘essential,’ and what is ‘non-essential’ is left up to the lead wolves to decide.

Here is Christ drawing a distinction between those disciples who “believe on Him� and those who “continue in my word.� Believing on Christ and publicly proclaiming Him as your Lord might have many believing that you are a disciple of Christ. But according to Christ, nothing could be farther from the Truth. According to Christ only those who “continue in His word are His disciples indeed.� Do you doubt that this is true? Do you think that believing in Christ and praying the sinners prayer, proclaiming your love, and your belief in the grace and faith of Jesus Christ are all that is needed for salvation? Well think again. Just look at what Christ has to say to these very “Jews which believed on Him:�

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

An so it is to this very day those who believe in Christ want to kill those who are faithful to His Words “Love thine enemies… All who take up the sword shall die by the sword.� These words of our Lord are hated and despised by all the leaders of “historical orthodox Christianity.�

Hence it is only those who “continue in my Word who are Christ’s disciples indeed.� All others may loudly proclaim otherwise, but their doctrine betrays the fact that “My Word has no place in you.�

Here is how important “continuing in my Word� was to the apostle Paul:�



Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Isn’t the weeding out of heretics and witches something reserved for fanatical tyrants like the early Puritans, or modern day cult leaders? Who has any right to tell me that their doctrine is better than my doctrine. One thing is certain. No one can tell any one else what they must do:



2 Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
And what is a heretic? A heretic is one who teaches heresy. And what is heresy? Heresy is false doctrines coming from the mouth of false brothers who call themselves God’s prophets and all the while teaching those under their charge to disobey, hate and despise the doctrine of Christ. Where does Titus 3:10 fit into “unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials?� Contrast this ecumenical doctrine of toleration of heresy with these words of admonition from God’s own apostles:



2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus [ A Jesus who tells you to take up again thy sword and fight for God and country], whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another [ecumenical- lets just tolerate heresy, otherwise we’ll appear as a know it all dictator] spirit, which ye have not received, or another [God will burn most of His creation in hell for all eternity] gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear [ecumenically] with him [in the non-essentials].
Paul was apparently well aware of how hard it is to stay faithful to Christ’s words in the face of those who teach Christ’s people that ‘all that matters is love and grace and faith.’But if “judge not that ye be not judged,� means that we are not ever to judge heretics, then where, pray tell, do these inspired words fit into “Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials?�



1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit [doctrine] , but try the spirits [doctrines] whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the [church] world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that [the true ‘Love thine enemies’] Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that [the true ‘love thine enemies’] Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world [’Don’t listen to Christ, why if you listen to Christ you won’t even be able to have a web page, you had better take up your sword and fight against and kill your enemies or you will be in a world ruled by Judaistic Pharisees in Peter’s day or Moslems today, Russians yesterday and Germans before that, etc.] and the [ecumenical]world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We [who abide in the doctrine of Christ] are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love [thine enemies and] one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not [his enemies] knoweth not God; for God is love.
Look closely at these words of the doctrine of Christ, so slighted by the ecumenical mind:



2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from [Christ- love thine enemies… put up again thy sword, all who live by the sword shall die by the sword] the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2Jo 1:7 For many [ecumenical] deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that [the true] Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This [ecumenical Jesus ] is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this [love thine enemies… put up again thy sword ] doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Do these verses have any affect upon the ecumenical mind? I have yet to see these verses addressed by any of the thousands who preach and teach that love and faith and grace are all that matters. “Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials� is a much popular doctrine than the doctrine of Christ which right here tells us that we must “abide in the doctrine of Christ or else we “have not God.� And while these detractors loudly proclaim their love just look at how John here defines love



And this is love, that we walk after his [love thine enemies… put up thy sword] commandments
And it is even more telling when we discover that the word translated ‘continue’ as in:



Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
is the Greek word ‘meno,’ Strongs # 3306. This is the exact same Greek word which is translated as ‘abide’ here in 2 John:



2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth [Greek ‘meno’] not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Christ’s words:



Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
have very effectively been twisted into a lie which has effectively dismantled the shield against heresy which these many verses concerning ‘abiding in the doctrine of Christ,’ would have provided. What Christ is saying here at the beginning of Matthew seven is “judge not [harshly] that you be not judged [harshly] for with what judgment ye judge , ye shall be judged.� These words, as is so often the case, duplicate the very next verses:



Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Is Christ telling us not to judge our brother’s heresies? No, not at all. look at His conclusion:



Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Christ wants us to get the moat out of our brothers eye. But Christ will not tolerate hypocrisy. Get the beam out of thine own eye first “then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.� And it is in this same chapter where Christ makes this statement:


Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

“Ye shall know them by their fruits?� Does that sound like Christ was telling us not to judge the things within the church? No, of course not. The scriptures do not contradict themselves. Paul instructed the church at Corinth to judge both sin and heresy in their midst:


1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Does that sound like Paul thought that Matthew 7:1-2 meant that we were not to judge sin and heresy in our midst? No Paul tells us to put away from among yourselves that wicked person [who abideth not in the doctrine of Christ.�] Christ made no attempt at being ecumenical. Neither will His “disciples indeed.� Many are called to proclaim themselves His disciples. But very few are chosen to be faithful to the words of Christ. For those few hearty souls Christ has these words of warning and encouragement:



Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

“Hated of all men… called Beelzebub, persecuted. � What else do God’s elect have to look forward to? Apparently Those who will remain faithful to and “aide in the doctrines of Christ� will apparently be a lonely bunch:


Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen
If Christ was persecuted, hated of all men, called names and a member of a very small and scattered group then we too must suffer the same because:



1Jo 4:17 (b) …As he is, so are we in this world.
I hope you see now what it means to be a “disciple indeed.� And I especially hope that you can discern the difference between a disciple and a disciple in deed? I hope you can now understand why the entire “historical orthodox Christian church� is so hopelessly lost in a sea of heresy. And above all I hope you can see that heresy is not to be tolerated at all. I ask this question every opportunity I get to do so: Who is the ‘we and the us’ of 1 John 4:



1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

If we are unable or unwilling to immediately identify with this exclusive group as those who� abide in the doctrine of Christ,� who are the limust test for the “spirit of truth versus the spirit of error,� then we must remember:



Luk 19:22 (a) …Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant…
So here is your choice. It is a caused choice but you will have to choose between these two:

“Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials,� VERSUS:



1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Daniel]

Heres my two cents Steve, prior to that verse is what is profitable and after shows what is not profitable, even vain itself.

Titus 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.[/u]

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.  

Abiding in the doctrine of Christ is so we might bear fruit to God, to be a partaker of His divine nature. The wholesome words of Christ whose doctrine is according to Godliness

1Titus 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Knowing and understanding all things is not something to be impatient toward if patience is a fruit of the spirit that is to be found in us.

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith[/u], so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.[/u]

Knowledge is what vanishes away

1Cr 3:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.[/u]

Its not wrong to know in part

1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/u]

Which includes knowledge

Aren't we to be perfected in love? Faith worketh by love, its the goal of our faith, the evidence God dwells in us (who is love). His disciples would be known by their love for one another. To know God is to love Him and the brethren even our enemies. Even if one would say, "I love God" but hate his brother that defines one as a liar. Same goes for Gods love and lliving according to His commandments, He commands us to "love one another".

Obedience unto what?

1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

I love this verse you quoted Steve, helpers of ones joy!! Not dominion over others faith, some have a weak faith others strong, enough to move mountains if need be, but if faith works by love what good is faith without love? Would I not be nothing at all?

2 Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Paul gave examples of heresy for us that we can know. I think its commendable to be accepting of others who are weak in faith. Thats what the body of Christ does but builds "up" until we all come to the unity of the faith. We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part. These CAN indeed be known even "all" but they are in part and can be had without love. The form of knowledge puffs up, the light of knowledge manifests itself in love.


If we cannot even love one another how can we love those who hate us? The first should be easy, and that seems impossible with some. :lol:

Daniel

[Daniel]

Ooopsy double posted :oops:

[SteveB]

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Knowledge is what vanishes away

Does that mean you shouldnt have it?

1Cr 3:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Its not wrong to know in part

True but you must go past the milk to strong meat. Loving you enemies a portion of strong meat, indeed.

Aren't we to be perfected in love? Faith worketh by love, its the goal of our faith, the evidence God dwells in us (who is love). His disciples would be known by their love for one another. To know God is to love Him and the brethren even our enemies. Even if one would say, "I love God" but hate his brother that defines one as a liar. Same goes for Gods love and lliving according to His commandments, He commands us to "love one another".

Yes He does tell to love our enemies. The definition of hate however would be what i'd be doing if we were to tolerate 'the cancer of tolerance'.  

Paul gave examples of heresy for us that we can know. I think its commendable to be accepting of others who are weak in faith. Thats what the body of Christ does but builds "up" until we all come to the unity of the faith. We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part. These CAN indeed be known even "all" but they are in part and can be had without love. The form of knowledge puffs up, the light of knowledge manifests itself in love.

Asking questions is cool. I do. Building up others is cool. I do(Lordwilling)
Teaching false doctrine is not cool. Those who do after the second admonition MUST BE REJECTED. THATS A COMMAND AND NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR PERSONAL OPINION.

Paul told us the Corinthian fornicator was to be delievered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh(a good thing). This is what i would expect you to do to me if i were teaching false doctrine.

Knowledge does puffs up and you must fight it, BUT YOU MUST HAVE IT!

If we cannot even love one another how can we love those who hate us? The first should be easy, and that seems impossible with some.

What is your def. of Love?

[ertsky]

i hear you Steve  

loud and clear, what you typed there is identical to what i have learned, particularly as i have listened to Mikes audio mp3's.

and felt it confirmed in the spirit.

but what can be done?

people like Lightseeker and SOTW and plenty of others before them continue to be allowed on the bt board, and people that don't understand these concepts continue to misinterpret the motives of any who want to rebuke those who are not following Christ, if what they type is anything to go by, and what else is there to go by on a message board.

that's why it might be a good idea to have a section of the forum called the
"i agree" section.

in that section you are not a trinitarian you are not posting sneaky attacks or casting doubt on Mike and Rays teachings etc etc it is understood that you agree.

time and time again i come on the bt board get really blessed and interested in something then BLANG!! some hogwash post straight out of  carnal central needs refuting rebuking or just plain deleting.

i've got better things to do than waste time refuting heretics. (after two admonitions)

if i wanted to read deceptive posts i could go to any number of message boards.

rambling on a bit here.

or the idea of having a part of the message board you can only get into if you are invited and seconded by people who have read your posts and found you to be at least not a trinitarian or Ray and Mike dissenter or some other kind of Truth hater.

oh i can hear the cries now

ELITIST! SNOB! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!

look all i want is a bt board where i dont have to read attacks on true doctrine.

anyways

who cares what i think i certainly dont, Gods will be done

another day closer to the place no dissenters enter

one day the door will be shut on all this tomfoolery and wickedness

Luk 13:25  When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

God knows i long for that day

no more alexander the coppersmith
no more balaam and jezebel
no more hymenaeus
no more false brethren
etc etc etc

hehe poor old ertsky needs to go and have a lie down now :lol:

[SteveB]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i hear you Steve  

loud and clear, what you typed there is identical to what i have learned, particularly as i have listened to Mikes audio mp3's.

and felt it confirmed in the spirit.

These are not my words they were taken right from mikes audio talk 'what is a disciple' i just cut and pasted them.

but what can be done?

We can stand up and let OUR Light shine. The ones who hear US hear God and the ones who dont, dont.  Not because were anything but ONLY because Chirst is IN US, there His works and NOT OF OURSELFS!

people like Lightseeker and SOTW and plenty of others before them continue to be allowed on the bt board, and people that don't understand these concepts continue to misinterpret the motives of any who want to rebuke those who are not following Christ, if what they type is anything to go by, and what else is there to go by on a message board.

This is my main concern. The people, Gods people, can be led away with every wind of doctrine from the wolves who seek to TEACH and dont understand what they say or do.   :cry:

that's why it might be a good idea to have a section of the forum called the
"i agree" section.

in that section you are not a trinitarian you are not posting sneaky attacks or casting doubt on Mike and Rays teachings etc etc it is understood that you agree.

Thats a great idea :idea:

time and time again i come on the bt board get really blessed and interested in something then BLANG!! some hogwash post straight out of carnal central needs refuting rebuking or just plain deleting.

I know. This 'cant we all just get along' nonsense is VERY deceptive. It makes you look like the bad guy. This is why Christ said WE WILL BE HATED OF ALL MEN. EVEN THE ONES WHO BELIEVE IN UR.

i've got better things to do than waste time refuting heretics. (after two admonitions)

if i wanted to read deceptive posts i could go to any number of message boards.

Its not the heretics i'm worried about(God will deal with them) its the sincere people who are looking for the Truth and are being led astray.

rambling on a bit here.

or the idea of having a part of the message board you can only get into if you are invited and seconded by people who have read your posts and found you to be at least not a trinitarian or Ray and Mike dissenter or some other kind of Truth hater.

That is an AWSOME IDEA! For only those who are of ONE MIND, Jesus Christs.

oh i can hear the cries now

ELITIST! SNOB! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!

Get used to it brother. YOU WILL BE HATED OF ALL MEN.

anyways

who cares what i think i certainly dont, Gods will be done

another day closer to the place no dissenters enter

one day the door will be shut on all this tomfoolery and wickedness

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

God knows i long for that day

no more alexander the coppersmith
no more balaam and jezebel
no more hymenaeus
no more false brethren
etc etc etc

hehe poor old ertsky needs to go and have a lie down now  

My heart aches for the full manifistion of the SONS OF GOD. Brother its coming, I tell you the Truth.

Love...Steve

[Daniel]

Daniel

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Knowledge is what vanishes away


Steve

Does that mean you shouldnt have it?

Daniel

Ofcourse not Steve, its not the end all but a means to the end, if you will allow the saying for lack of better words.

2Peter 1:5-9 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/u] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Whats the difference between the form of knowledge and the light of knowledge? The gospel or the light of the gospel? The form of godliness or the power of godliness? Knowledge alone without love is what he is speaking of. Paul had knowledge himself and with it he became all things to all men to win them. He confronted unfruitful works of darkness, the strivings over words, the list is all there in scripture itself.

Asking questions is cool. I do. Building up others is cool. I do(Lordwilling)
Teaching false doctrine is not cool. Those who do after the second admonition MUST BE REJECTED. THATS A COMMAND AND NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR PERSONAL OPINION.

Daniel responds,

I actually quoted the very verse in my post with the first and second admonition (in full) so I was not subjecting it to my own personal opinion. I only added the surrounding verses in its context, where did I subject my personal opinion to it?

This is the verse prior to it

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

They kicked out that "wicked man" for his immoral practices, but even "that wicked man" was brought back in in 2 Corinthiians (see below)


I would only question the former in using it across the board in practically every case. Sometimes its used when it does not need to be. Doctrine and ones life go hand in hand. The doctrine is after godliness right? To Timothy Paul told to watch both his doctrine and his life to save the hearer. Nothing will cut an ear off to the gospel faster then a meanspirited deliverance of the message. Not saying being angry is wrong, we can be angry and sin not, Paul was and so was Jesus. They confronted hypocrisy. But they didn't seeth hatred :lol:

What is your def. of Love?

The one spoken of in scripture best describes that which you can discern in another. You can note who has some of "that" in them :wink:  as well as the wisdom that descendeth down is perfectly described in scripture and its fruit.

Of the man in 1 Cornthians who was cast out, have you ever read Paul's second letter in regard to him?

2Cr 2:6 Sufficient to such a man [is] this punishment, which [was inflicted] of many.

2Cr 2:7 So that contrariwise ye [ought] rather to forgive [him], and comfort [him], lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

2Cr 2:28 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm [your] love toward him.[/u]

2Cr 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

2Cr 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ;

I love the concern and even the desire to bring back in exhibited, to me thats an example of the love and forgiveness of God.

Daniel

[orion77]

Heres my two cents Steve, prior to that verse is what is profitable and after shows what is not profitable, even vain itself.

Titus 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.[/u]

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.  

Abiding in the doctrine of Christ is so we might bear fruit to God, to be a partaker of His divine nature. The wholesome words of Christ whose doctrine is according to Godliness

1Titus 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Knowing and understanding all things is not something to be impatient toward if patience is a fruit of the spirit that is to be found in us.

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith[/u], so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.[/u]

Knowledge is what vanishes away

1Cr 3:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.[/u]

Its not wrong to know in part

1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/u]

Which includes knowledge

Aren't we to be perfected in love? Faith worketh by love, its the goal of our faith, the evidence God dwells in us (who is love). His disciples would be known by their love for one another. To know God is to love Him and the brethren even our enemies. Even if one would say, "I love God" but hate his brother that defines one as a liar. Same goes for Gods love and lliving according to His commandments, He commands us to "love one another".

Obedience unto what?

1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

I love this verse you quoted Steve, helpers of ones joy!! Not dominion over others faith, some have a weak faith others strong, enough to move mountains if need be, but if faith works by love what good is faith without love? Would I not be nothing at all?

2 Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Paul gave examples of heresy for us that we can know. I think its commendable to be accepting of others who are weak in faith. Thats what the body of Christ does but builds "up" until we all come to the unity of the faith. We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part. These CAN indeed be known even "all" but they are in part and can be had without love. The form of knowledge puffs up, the light of knowledge manifests itself in love.


If we cannot even love one another how can we love those who hate us? The first should be easy, and that seems impossible with some. :lol:

Daniel

Here is one with true knowledge, very well said Daniel.

The thing that keeps coming to thought is, since we came out of babylon and they brand us heretics, they condemn us to a fiery torture of hell forever.  So my question is, if branded a heretic by a believer who does not believe in hell, one who also knows of the soverignity of God, and that God will save all, and confesses they forgive their enemies, where does a heretic go to these kind of people?

God bless,

Gary

[SteveB]

I actually quoted the very verse in my post with the first and second admonition (in full) so I was not subjecting it to my own personal opinion. I only added the surrounding verses in its context, where did I subject my personal opinion to it?

We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part.

Weak sheep you be correct. Wolves in sheeps clothing are the people to who i refer. That what your not seeing. Tha come as angels of light but are the ministers of satan and decieve many.

He confronted unfruitful works of darkness, the strivings over words, the list is all there in scripture itself.

I following Paul as he followed Christ. YOu assume i rebuking heretics because i hate and am 'meanspirited' NOTHING COULD BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH! I'm doing what Paul told us to do.

I would only question the former in using it across the board in practically every case. Sometimes its used when it does not need to be. Doctrine and ones life go hand in hand. The doctrine is after godliness right? To Timothy Paul told to watch both his doctrine and his life to save the hearer. Nothing will cut an ear off to the gospel faster then a meanspirited deliverance of the message. Not saying being angry is wrong, we can be angry and sin not, Paul was and so was Jesus. They confronted hypocrisy. But they didn't seeth hatred  

You question 'not using it across the board in practically every case'? Who am i supposed to believe, Paul or You?

"seeth hatred" you judge my thoughts? YOu know the intent of my heart? Have you ever read any of Christs rebukes? I've been VERY CAREFUL not to overuse language. Yet you assume i do this out of hate?.?

I love the concern and even the desire to bring back in exhibited, to me thats an example of the love and forgiveness of God.

So do I.  Love...Steve

[SteveB]

Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Daniel]

Gary

The thing that keeps coming to thought is, since we came out of babylon and they brand us heretics, they condemn us to a fiery torture of hell forever. So my question is, if branded a heretic by a believer who does not believe in hell, one who also knows of the soverignity of God, and that God will save all, and confesses they forgive their enemies, where does a heretic go to these kind of people?

Not sure if I caught that last question Gary, where do "we" go? As in holes in the ground? :lol:  Or how can we go "to them"? I don't know, I never feel led to say anything or go anywhere as odd as that might sound.

Its not easy to be with cruel people, but their words do lose their sting knowing the grace of God in truth. Any of their words spoken in unkindness are "their own words" for which they answer for.

I cringe "for them" actually  :shock:

Where you want to go Gary?  :lol:

Daniel

[Daniel]

I actually quoted the very verse in my post with the first and second admonition (in full) so I was not subjecting it to my own personal opinion. I only added the surrounding verses in its context, where did I subject my personal opinion to it?

We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part.

Weak sheep you be correct. Wolves in sheeps clothing are the people to who i refer. That what your not seeing. Tha come as angels of light but are the ministers of satan and decieve many.

He confronted unfruitful works of darkness, the strivings over words, the list is all there in scripture itself.

I following Paul as he followed Christ. YOu assume i rebuking heretics because i hate and am 'meanspirited' NOTHING COULD BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH! I'm doing what Paul told us to do.

I would only question the former in using it across the board in practically every case. Sometimes its used when it does not need to be. Doctrine and ones life go hand in hand. The doctrine is after godliness right? To Timothy Paul told to watch both his doctrine and his life to save the hearer. Nothing will cut an ear off to the gospel faster then a meanspirited deliverance of the message. Not saying being angry is wrong, we can be angry and sin not, Paul was and so was Jesus. They confronted hypocrisy. But they didn't seeth hatred  

You question 'not using it across the board in practically every case'? Who am i supposed to believe, Paul or You?

"seeth hatred" you judge my thoughts? YOu know the intent of my heart? Have you ever read any of Christs rebukes? I've been VERY CAREFUL not to overuse language. Yet you assume i do this out of hate?.?

I love the concern and even the desire to bring back in exhibited, to me thats an example of the love and forgiveness of God.

So do I. And when you come back i'll welcome you back like the cor. did the fornicator. Love...Steve

Oh my :shock:  Steve, where in any place have I adressed YOU personally? :shock:  Not at all, you started a post for discussion, I was only joining in to speak with you concerning some verses to both add and have a bit of discussion.

I'm so sorry if you are taking my responses as being AT YOU rather then WITH YOU.

I do not want to get kicked off this board for intentions not mine. I will not respond no further, Im sorry I made you think for some reason this was about you, it was not but the general thought of the verses I was sharing.

Again, Im very very sorry

Daniel

[SteveB]

Tit 2:11  For1063 the3588 grace of Godthat bringeth salvation4992 hath appeared2014 to all3956 men,
Tit 2:12  Chasening us that, denying ungodlinessand worldly lusts, we should live2198 soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;165

[SteveB]

I'm so sorry if you are taking my responses as being AT YOU rather then WITH YOU.

I'll take you at your word and your forgiven.

Please forgive me for taking it that way.

Love...Steve

[orion77]

ALL are put through the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is Gods consuming Spirit.  Few in this life, most at the great White Throne Judgment.  Nonetheless we all are put through the fire, admit it or not.  Noone can escape the judgment of God.

When we go through this, should we call our brothers and sisters a fool or even worse a heretic?  Honestly, can a sinner judge another sinner?  Or is this something left to the Righteous Judge, until we know in full, since now we know only in part?

Personally, I have Jesus Spirit in me, this is not known out of conjecture, but through true experiences.  There is no doubt within myself at all.  I thank the Lord for giving me that.  He gave me strong faith, that is past what can be seen or even sensed in my mind.  This is why I speak of the love of God often and to be honest, not often enough.  

I cannot help if some people can not understand that, but just because they cannot understand it, will not deny the fact that God is all about love, mercy and forgiveness.  Especially seeing that we believe that all will be saved in the longrun.  

His strong love brings me through the fire of His Spirit with chastisement, puts me through persecutions, that shows me through experience and not only the reading of His word, how to and not to treat my fellow brethren and sisters.

This is what is meant to be careful, we might be speaking to angels (messengers) unaware.  Gods true people do not put all their cards on the table.  They test those spirits and are careful not to cast their pearl before swine.  We must speak in brotherly love and not to show two pair, when the one you accuse, might be holding a full house.

God bless,

Gary

[Daniel]

I'm so sorry if you are taking my responses as being AT YOU rather then WITH YOU.

I'll take you at your word and your forgiven.

Please forgive me for taking it that way.

Love...Steve

Yes please reread the post Steve. YOU are not being adressed but scripture is being discussed by comparison WITH YOU. I was not even talking about you. Where could you have ever drawn that to that conclusion?

Your forgiven for taking scripture as being directed at you verses being discussed with you.

My words were never used or directed at you anywhere. If I'm missing something in any accusation in the future please copy paste these to my attention and ask rather then accuse. You dont have to take my word for anything, words are a dime a dozen, you can reread and see for yourself. I never adressed YOU anywhere except to discuss your thread.

What you thought I was doing to you, you just did to me in that regard. No hard feeelings, I just hope if we ever bump path again speeaking of scriptures you won't find yourself as the center of conversations not about you, ok?

Daniel

[Daniel]

ALL are put through the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is Gods consuming Spirit.  Few in this life, most at the great White Throne Judgment.  Nonetheless we all are put through the fire, admit it or not.  Noone can escape the judgment of God.

When we go through this, should we call our brothers and sisters a fool or even worse a heretic?  Honestly, can a sinner judge another sinner?  Or is this something left to the Righteous Judge, until we know in full, since now we know only in part?

Personally, I have Jesus Spirit in me, this is not known out of conjecture, but through true experiences.  There is no doubt within myself at all.  I thank the Lord for giving me that.  He gave me strong faith, that is past what can be seen or even sensed in my mind.  This is why I speak of the love of God often and to be honest, not often enough.  

I cannot help if some people can not understand that, but just because they cannot understand it, will not deny the fact that God is all about love, mercy and forgiveness.  Especially seeing that we believe that all will be saved in the longrun.  

His strong love brings me through the fire of His Spirit with chastisement, puts me through persecutions, that shows me through experience and not only the reading of His word, how to and not to treat my fellow brethren and sisters.

This is what is meant to be careful, we might be speaking to angels (messengers) unaware.  Gods true people do not put all their cards on the table.  They test those spirits and are careful not to cast their pearl before swine.  We must speak in brotherly love and not to show two pair, when the one you accuse, might be holding a full house.

God bless,

Gary

Praise God!

That was beautifully put Gary

Daniel

[chrissiela]

ALL are put through the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is Gods consuming Spirit.  Few in this life, most at the great White Throne Judgment.  Nonetheless we all are put through the fire, admit it or not.  Noone can escape the judgment of God.

When we go through this, should we call our brothers and sisters a fool or even worse a heretic?  Honestly, can a sinner judge another sinner?  Or is this something left to the Righteous Judge, until we know in full, since now we know only in part?

Personally, I have Jesus Spirit in me, this is not known out of conjecture, but through true experiences.  There is no doubt within myself at all.  I thank the Lord for giving me that.  He gave me strong faith, that is past what can be seen or even sensed in my mind.  This is why I speak of the love of God often and to be honest, not often enough.  

I cannot help if some people can not understand that, but just because they cannot understand it, will not deny the fact that God is all about love, mercy and forgiveness.  Especially seeing that we believe that all will be saved in the longrun.  

His strong love brings me through the fire of His Spirit with chastisement, puts me through persecutions, that shows me through experience and not only the reading of His word, how to and not to treat my fellow brethren and sisters.

This is what is meant to be careful, we might be speaking to angels (messengers) unaware.  Gods true people do not put all their cards on the table.  They test those spirits and are careful not to cast their pearl before swine.  We must speak in brotherly love and not to show two pair, when the one you accuse, might be holding a full house.

God bless,

Gary

Amen, Gary!

I have written three different replies to this thread and could not bring myself to hit SEND, and the longer I sat trying to decide the LONGER the post became....

I hesitate to say ANYTHING having just come back to the board so recently... especially when this was the very thing that caused me to leave the forum in the first place... and one I have already been so outspoken about in the past.  :?

I was biting my tongue and feeling the pain of it....  

But I am blessed by this post and the love that you continue to exhibit here and encourage in others.  =D>

Being able to see ONE truth or TEN truths or ONE HUNDRED truths in no 'guarantee' that we are not deceived in some other area....

Even Mike has had to repent of teaching heresy.  :shock:  

We know NOTHING until God reveals it to us... and we can try the spirit and still come the 'wrong' conclusion..... we can harbor some 'idol of the heart' or some 'heresy' of our own and not even be aware of it.

But God willing we WILL BE made aware of it and have it/them BURNED OUT OF US... in His time.

In the meantime... I, like you, try to err on the side of love and forgiveness and patience and long-suffering....  I thought of the entertaining angels unaware verse as well.... along with these:

Mat 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42  For

I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.[/list:u]

And before I open my mouth, I try to always remember this:

Pro 18:21  

Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.[/list:u]

Out of our OWN MOUTH we will be judged....  :shock:

Besides.... we are not to judge one another.... but....

Rom 14:13  

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.[/list:u]

OK... I keep ADDING here, too.....   :oops:

:-#  <--- still not very good at 'that'  8-[

[SteveB]

I was not even talking about you. Where could you have ever drawn that to that conclusion?

I did reread and I'll take you at your word. Love...Steve

[SteveB]

Even Mike has had to repent of teaching heresy.  

Out of our OWN MOUTH we will be judged....  

Besides.... we are not to judge one another.... but....

1Co 4:5  Therefore5620 judge2919 nothing5100, 3361 before4253 the time,2540 until2193, 302 the3588 Lord2962 come,2064 who3739 both2532 will bring to light5461 the3588 hidden things2927 of darkness,4655 and2532 will make manifest5319 the3588 counsels1012 of the3588 hearts:2588 and2532 then5119 shall every man1538 have1096 praise1868 of575 God.2316

1Co 5:12  For1063 what have I to do5101, 3427 to judge2919 them also that are without?1854, 2532 do not3780 ye5210 judge2919 them that are within?2080

1Co 6:2  Do ye not3756 know1492 that3754 the3588 saints40 shall judge2919 the3588 world?2889 and2532 if1487 the3588 world2889 shall be judged2919 by1722 you,5213 are2075 ye unworthy370 to judge the smallest matters?2922, 1646

1Co 6:3  Know1492 ye not3756 that3754 we shall judge2919 angels?32 how much more3386 things that pertain to this life?982

1Co 6:4  If1437 then3767 ye(3303) have2192 judgments2922 of things pertaining to this life,982 set2523 them5128 to judge who are least esteemed1848 in1722 the3588 church.1577

1Co 6:5  I speak3004 to4314 your5213 shame.1791 Is it so,3779 that there is2076 not3756 a wise man4680 among1722 you?5213 no, not3761 one1520 that3739 shall be able1410 to judge1252 between303, 3319 his848 brethren?80

1Co 10:15  I speak3004 as5613 to wise men;5429 judge2919 ye5210 what3739 I say.5346