> General Discussions
What is required of a disciple?
orion77:
You all are great, this is some great communication and speaks loudly. The truth bears witness through the Spirit.
I praise God that it is not all about who is right and who is wrong, from our point of view. For we all have been wrong at one time or another. I also thank the Father, that He had the wisdom to send His Son, to show the way. From experience, we never would of found it, if not for Him. There is nothing I can say or do to justify my existence. It is all about Him and Him alone.
Look at how lucky we are, to have One such as this to declare our Father to us. Words simply cannot express the gratitude we have. This is the foundation of our faith God gave us. The world cannot understand, this is why they try to explain God in a carnal manner, and put human characteristics upon Him. To put evil intentiions upon His plan, is something that makes us sick, for we have the witness of the Spirit.
Oh we can shout, we are right and they are wrong, but who is to say which is right except Him, for we can do nothing without Him, and no one does right, no not one. So, what is the point of this vain life we live, except to be thankful, for the life He gave us. Not only this physical life, but life aionian, which is to know Jesus. Can it get any better than this?
To walk and judge another one of His creation is not His plan for us, but to press on forward and to get out of the snares of this world. We have been chosen to come out of this world, to not partake of her sins, to be separate, unique, yet hated by this world. The bible, history and the present all testify to these things.
His last enemy to conquer is death and this world is full of it, whether in deed, thought or idealogy. Work on building love, patience, long suffering, forgiveness, meekness and righteousness. This is the hidden manna, that the world cannot receive, but we can, because His Spirit is in us.
God bless,
Gary
eutychus:
=D> =D> =D> \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
thats all i can say.
chrissiela:
Good words... just came across these verses when I was looking up something on the harvest and the labourers:
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much PATIENCE, in AFFLICTIONS, in NECESSITIES, in DISTRESSES,
2Co 6:5 In STRIPES, in IMPRISONMENTS, in TUMULTS, in LABOURS, in WATCHINGS, in FASTINGS;
2Co 6:6 By PURENESS, by KNOWLEDGE, by LONGSUFFERING, by KINDNESS, by THE HOLY GHOST, by LOVE UNFEIGNED,
2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2Co 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
2Co 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
2Co 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, YET MAKING MANY RICH; as having nothing, AND YET POSSESSING ALL THINGS.[/list:u]
Chrissie
Joey Porter:
Very nice posts going on. I just want to reiterate that God will give us wisdom and discernment when dealing with people, so that we can know if a person is genuinely seeking the truth. Jesus said that if we have the plank removed from our eye, we will see more clearly to dislodge what is in our brother's eye. But here's the important thing to remember - we must never make the mistake of thinking that the plank has been permanently removed from our eye, never to return again.
1 Corinthians 10
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
God will grant us the discernment to see who is truly seeking and who is just stubbornly clinging to "idols of the heart." We don't need to doubt that because Jesus said it, and we know His words are true. Sometimes it can be tricky and we probably won't see things right away, but the more we converse with someone, these things will come to the surface.
However, if we come to a place in which we think that our plank is permanently dislodged, we begin reaching that place in which we say "If you don't agree with me 100% on everything, you are a heretic and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ, and you must be disfellowshipped."
It's easy to fall into that trap. I myself, in eagerness to seek and uphold all truth, find myself getting sucked down that path every now and again. But I believe God sets me straight and shows me that this can be a dead end raod, because what happens when an issue arises in which I am not sure about or haven't reached a definite conclusion on? Where does that leave me? I either consider myself a blind heretic, or accept the fact that no matter how eager we may be to know all Truth, it just doesn't happen right away.
If having and agreeing upon ALL the answers is the only way that we can be of "one mind," then we are either going to be a one-man fellowship, or we'll be heading toward forming one of those nasty little "C" words.
chrissiela:
--- Quote from: Gill ---
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver ---
That being said, we all would still be of the same mind, FIND THE TREASURE! Even though the methods and styles and effectiveness would differ in degrees.
Joe
--- End quote ---
Hehe, i like that :D .
The hell doctrine blasphemes against God's character, the free-will idea puffs man up ...there are some doctrines that do a great deal of damage in one way or another. But there are a many other truths that just seem to be seen differently by different people ~ each with their own scriptual take on it. For me personally, i hope that God keeps me being real in only proffessing that which i really do understand and believe. Even if that means i look a little dense or weak in someone else's eyes.
If Paul knew in part and saw through a glass darkly ...you can bet i will (and even more so). None of this means that i don't desire knowledge though! As Joe said: "FIND THE TREASURE!" :lol:
You know, if i thought the forum wouldn't break out in a rash, i wish we could discuss exactly what being a heretic really means. (Maybe one of the mods could suggest Ray do a paper; i would be interested to see his take on it ~ don't think he has written one already?). Surely there must be a proper definition. There must be a line drawn somewhere.
--- End quote ---
I've been thinking about this today and looking up the verse and the words... here is what I have so far:
This is the verse that sort of started some of these discussions...
Tit 3:10-11 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.[/list:u]
So what is a HERETIC?
Well, look at the verses LEADING UP TO these verses and I think they tell us exactly what a “heretic� is:
[sorry this is long.... it's spread out over two chapters] :oops:
Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tit 2:2 That the AGED MEN [CHILD vs MAN :?: ] be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Tit 2:3 The AGED WOMAN likewise :wink: , that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the YOUNG [remember CHILDHOOD and YOUTH are vanity] women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Tit 2:6 YOUNG MEN likewise exhort to be sober minded.
Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the CONTRARY part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Tit 2:9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. [guilty of MURDERS] :cry:
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are UNPROFITABLE and VAIN.[/list:u]
And here it is: :shock:
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.[/list:u]
From the verses here, in which it is used, it seems to me that a “heretic� is one who commits all of those things listed here that we are to AVOID and REBUKE. It has to do with how we treat and speak to others, how we handle the doctrine of Christ… how we LIVE. Avoiding STRIFE and DIVISION and those things that are UNPROFITABLE and VAIN. :?:
The WORD here for “heretic� is G141 which means “a schismatic�
G141
αἱρετικός
aihretikos
hahee-ret-ee-kos'
From the same as G140; a schismatic. (“heretic� is the Greek word itself.): - heretic [the Greek word itself].[/list:u]
So what a schismatic, if not one who causes “schism�? :o
--- Quote from: Websters.com ---Main Entry: schis•mat•ic
Pronunciation: siz-'ma-tik, ski-
Function: noun
: one who creates or takes part in schism
Main Entry: schism
Pronunciation: 'si-z&m, 'ski- also 'shi-; among clergy usually 'si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English scisme, from Middle French cisme, from Late Latin schismat-, schisma, from Greek, cleft, division, from schizein to split -- more at SHED
1 : DIVISION, SEPARATION; also : DISCORD, DISHARMONY
2 a : formal division in or separation from a church or religious body b : the offense of promoting schism
--- End quote ---
That is the ONLY time that this particular word is used in the NT, but others words that are derived from the same or similar words are used elsewhere:
G141 (aihretikos) is derived from G140, which means to “make a choice�, translated here as “chosen�:
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.[/list:u]
And G140 is derived from G138 which means “to take for oneself, that is, to prefer�
Found in these verses:
Phi 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;[/list:u]
Now G139 which means “a choice� is derived from G138 (to take for oneself ; prefer) and is translated heresy and heresies a few times, as well as “sect�:
Act 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/list:u]
Even denying the Lord... :shock: HOW might we do that?? :?:
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.[/list:u]
Back to G138 :arrow:
Gal 5:18-26 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, HERESIES,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.[/list:u]
Where else might we find another witness concerning those from whom we should withraw? :-k
1Ti 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
1Ti 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach OTHERWISE, AND CONSENT NOT TO WHOLESOME WORDS, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF. [/list:u]
Blessings,
Chrissie
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