Matt Ch 6

[Linny]

A couple of things popped out at me when I was in the Word today.
Thought I'd share.

BT brought us out of the Word of Faith movement. You know the one. They are the biggest money grabbers of all. I used to sit in church and fear what others thought of us at offering time. On disability we only get paid once a month. I asked my poor husband to divide it into 4's so we'd always have something to put in.  But then I felt guilty because it wasn't my "firstfruits" if I didn't give it all right away.
I would get so upset and actually frightened if he didn't tithe. He was confused about tithing and questioning it WAY before me.

Well, I'm reading today in Matt Ch 6:1-5 about the giving of alms in secret and it occurs to me, first, that alms seems to mean helping others, which the church has stolen and placed themselves in the helping role using our money, so that no one looks around them to see those right in their faces who need help.
And second, that when others know what you are doing, your reward is just that and no more. The only way to be rewarded by the Lord in your giving is to do it so no one sees. How much more obvious can a basket in the front of the church be??

The Word is in complete contradiction to what the church is teaching! I am just so irritated that preachers can read that and still preach that you must sew a seed to them to get blessed.
And you have the TV preachers reading the names of their givers!!!

The other thing was along the same lines about praying in secret. Matt 6:5-13. The whole lesson about praying in secret, no vain repetitions, not praying out loud for others to hear, is followed by the Lord's Prayer which all the churches pray out loud in unison! Again, complete contradiction.

Thank you Ray and BT for rescuing me from Babylon!

[Phill B]

I used to sit in church and fear what others thought of us at offering time.

Hi Linny

I can relate to your comments.

I've only spent several months attending Church(s) in my life time. I feel sorry for all those who have been fleeced by paying tithes.

I used to fear what others thought about me in any situation. In fact if I was walking down a crowded main street and heard someone laughing several blocks away - I assumed they were laughing at me!

One of the liberating gifts I learnt while trudging this road of happy destiny was...Its none of my business what other people think about me!

I used to fear man. The Bible taught me to fear God instead. My reward for doing so is that I can truly say I do not really care what people say about me now. Nor do I get any anxiety attacks like i used too!

I still have daily problems and issues. But I have peace today.

Glory to God.

[Dave in Tenn]

Phil, I used to be quite a bit like that too.  When they did the huddle in a football game, I was sure they were talking about me.     And that was on television.

Linny, I hear ya.  That's one of the things that started to make me see that the church had it wrong.  I'd just read the scripture you are referring to when that sunday our pastor said he'd been reading the 'financial reports' and, though he didn't name names, made it very clear that he KNEW who had been giving and how much.  Don't let your left hand know what you're right hand is doing?  But I'm supposed to let a finance committe and the pastor know?  Don't think so!

Another early one was the admonition to 'let there not be too many teachers.'  I read that, and the next sunday there they were (large and growing church) pleading for teachers to fill all the spots in their man-made Sunday School organization.  Huh?

Anyway...I've been trying to write a song that incorporates some of these thoughts in Matthew's gospel, so it was cool to see the heading. 

[OBrenda]

Amen Linny!

[KristaD]

It's shocking to realize how plainly some of the things they ignore are written in the word isn't it? Sadly when you're blind writing on a page doesn't do much for you. Sadder still is that *we* see what's there and still can't get it all right .

[WhoAmI]

Linny,

  Good stuff. I guess it makes you also realize that if you can be rescued from it, just as I was. So can all the rest right? It is meant to be. It is sad but there will be joy!

Jeff

[Heidi]

Linny, the examples you gave about the contraditions opened my eyes as well.....same with yours Dave.....I am so humbled that God has opened my eyes to the truth of understanding His Word.

Heidi

[dogcombat]

Tis true.  Another writer noted in a letter to his former church "you claim to take up an offering FOR the poor, but, in reality it was taken FROM the poor".  This thought came to mind as read this thread.

Ches

[David]

Thanks Linny.
This was one of the very first things I started to feel was wrong in my Church. They went against everything in Mat 6. They prayed out loud, very repetitious, lots of "thank you Jesus" over and over again, very long prayers in prayer meetings, it almost got like a competition to see who could come up with the longest prayer and who could get the most "Amen" out of the group. Then there was their good works and charitable deeds, alms. They circulated a magazine throughout the town and had Church volunteers to post it door to door. Most of it was filled with reports of all the good things they'd done for people, with prominent people in the Church having their picture taken at the head of the articles. They had days in Church where they would bring people out to the pulpit and have them tell everyone about some charity event they'd done, and have everyone clap and cheer. I'm not knocking what they did for people, indeed these things are all part of what we should be doing in Christ. But you have to question their motives and if they'd ever read Mat 6.
Fasting was also a group activity. At prayer meetings in the middle of a fast they'd all talk about how hungry they were and what they'd given up that week. I confess I never joined in any fasting of food or water. To me the whole principle of fasting is about giving up your life to Christ, fasting from the world and everything in it. At that point in my walk the world to me was the world outside the Church.   
They also did a lot of things contrary to most of 1 Corinthians, the many instructions Paul gives to the Church and how it should be run etc. They'd have people speaking in "tongues", usually complete gibberish, during sunday services, often in front of new visitors and new faith seekers. Well just as Paul said, they just looked at them as if they were mad. Usually, those people wouldn't come again. The pastors reasoning was that his preaching was just too hard for them, that they didn't like the truth. One can hardly be surprised that a sane rational person would be not a little alarmed at a bunch of people rejoicing over, and praising a God they were telling anyone who would listen is going to torture their Friends and relatives forever, and ranting in gibberish waving their arms in the air.
As for the Lords prayer, all the time I was attending the Church I never heard it once.
For a time, I did believe the doctrine, that was the journey God took me on through Babylon. But I thank God that he never had me doing all those things. 

[AK4]

They prayed out loud, very repetitious, lots of "thank you Jesus" over and over again, very long prayers in prayer meetings, it almost got like a competition to see who could come up with the longest prayer and who could get the most "Amen" out of the group.

I remember when i was about 4 or 5.  I watched my older sister get baptised with some other people.  They went into a room together and knelt on the floor chanting out thank you Jesus thank you Jesus over and over, seeing who could say it the fastest and get the most out.  Me being that young at the time got baptised too there with my brother and sister and we did the same thing in the room together.  Except my  brother and sister stop mid way and looked at me like why is he doing this and why so fast.  I was so young i didnt know any better, just following the traditions of yet another church. 

Anthony

[Linny]

Thank you guys for all of your great comments. Something else I saw today made me question another longstanding belief that I hadn't thought of in a long time. I was wondering if any of you might have some insight for me.

I was reading on another thread in Rev. 20. I'll try to make sense of my question. 
It is talking about the dead standing before the great white throne of judgement. (A point the church obviously ignores when they believe we are already in "heaven" upon dying.) And it says two books are opened and the dead are judged out of the books according to their works.

It occurred to me that the church teaches that Christians won't be judged because Jesus' blood makes us white as snow and our sins will not count against us. Basically that the church is free of judgement. Am I wrong or is this the jest of their teachings?

So in this line of my logic, I then see that if we believe the Scriptures, then it shows that there are none saved by "giving their hearts to Jesus" while still alive but that ALL will be judged according to their works. Those who lived as the chosen will be with Him a thousand years and the rest will go into the Lake of Fire to be refined.

Am I missing something or am I still pulling out of my quite lengthy Babylonian past. 
Hopefully, this made some sense to someone besides myself.

Blessings, Lin

[Dave in Tenn]

"Am I missing something or am I still pulling out of my quite lengthy Babylonian past?"

Probably some of both, Linny.  There are 101 different 'theologies' built around Revelations.  Most all of them because they take all these symbols literally.  Of course, nobody really understands any of them (since they don't make any sense) so there are Two Billion and One misunderstandings.  Ray teaches (because John clearly STATES) that this revelation is symbolic.

Clear from Ray's teaching are two things.  Our sins are forgiven, but our carnality has to be removed (and that includes the sinning we still do).  We have to die to this flesh.  When and how that happens depends on the pre-ordination of God.  Beyond that, you surely know more than I do.   

[Linny]

Thanks Dave. I do understand the symbolism aspect however. I know that there are not literal books to be opened.
I spent a year in Revelation a few years back and I came to conclusions that did not fit into any of the mainstream church doctrines. I did find a ministry that believed as I did however. Now I know that with my newfound knowledge, I must dig in again to Revelation to tweak what I may have gotten completely wrong.
I just haven't had enough nudging to do so yet.
I have so much still to unlearn! 

[Kat]

Hi Lin,

1Peter 4:17  For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

For the Elect few their judgment is now in this life.  This is what Christ said about judging the world at this time.

John 12:47  And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Those that are not of the Elect wait judgment until Christ returns.

Rev 19:11  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

Rev 14:1  Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

v. 7  saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

Hope this helps  

mercy, peace and love
Kat