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Author Topic: An Old Email  (Read 1983 times)

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hillsbororiver

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An Old Email
« on: September 02, 2008, 03:22:06 PM »

God bless you Ray,

I want to first start off for thanking God for you and the website. The many truths that have been presented have helped me get out of my captive state that the church has had me in for a long time. I now want to have SCRIPTURES that back up EVERYTHING that I have been taught, because most of it has been presented to me from the "faulty" King James and that has caused me to believe (and teach) in error.   

Upon reading your paper on free will, I came across this quote and I would like more clarification.

"The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma."

My Question is: How then (or why) is it that if there is no such thing as free will, there is such a thing as accountability? For if God is in control of everything, and He has done everything "according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His Will" - then how can we be held accountable for the things that we "do"?

Respectfully,

Chris

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weigh the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray

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carol v

  • Guest
Re: An Old Email
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2008, 04:14:43 PM »

That's a keeper Joe. A succinct explanation of the way "free" will, choice, accountability, and responsibility all work. Thanks for posting.
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Patrick

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Re: An Old Email
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2008, 10:35:16 PM »

Quote from: Ray
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY!
When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

I'm a slow learner! :(
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EKnight

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Re: An Old Email
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2008, 10:55:33 PM »

Don't anyone jump down my throat because I ask on behalf of my husband.  If we choose sin because God influenced or caused us to do so and we suffer consequences from our sinful choice (jail time or burned fingers), then why must it be held against us again in the LOF?  I don't know scripture but I know that at some point I read that if we do good deeds on earth and are rewarded for them here then that is our reward PERIOD.  Wouldn't the same hold for sins we committed and were punished for here on earth? ???


Eileen
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hillsbororiver

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Re: An Old Email
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 11:26:49 PM »

Hi Eileen,

Any unrepented sin will be burned out of us in the LOF, if we are judging ourselves now that means God is dragging us through the fire of His Spirit in this age.

Remember, when we sin God is not forcing us as we kick and scream in an attempt to escape. Although circumstances are placed in our paths we sin voluntarily, often with great vigor! For instance we may know it is wrong to steal but if we are created with a propensity to take what is not ours if and when the opportunity arises and we feel we will not get caught the result most likely will be to steal.

We can use that with any other weakness, if one is prone to adultery even knowing it is wrong, if the opportunity arises what is the chance for failure?

All this begins to change only when we have His Spirit guiding us, living within us, we begin to hate the things that we once loved, we begin to seek and do His will rather than doing earthy, carnal things.

Your question and comments are very normal, we have been conditioned to believe we are masters of our own destiny, our eventual destiny is more glorious than we can even imagine, but we have to experience this completion of our creation first, when we are sick and tired of eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil we diligently begin seeking the fruit of the Tree of Life (Christ).   

Peace,

Joe
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EKnight

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Re: An Old Email
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 12:02:44 AM »

Joe,

Any unrepented sin will be burned out of us in the LOF, if we are judging ourselves now that means God is dragging us through the fire of His Spirit in this age.

Does that mean that anything I have done but have sincerely said I was sorry for and was ashamed of, won't be revealed in the lake of fire?  I mean, this is really good news to me if that is true. 

Eileen
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Falgn0n

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Re: An Old Email
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 06:41:13 AM »

Quote
when we are sick and tired of eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil we diligently begin seeking the fruit of the Tree of Life (Christ).

I just love the way you put that! Like, too much of anything is just not good for you! The Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil is like honey and cream, but eventually, it's just begins to make you sick!
It's mankind's obsession with "wisdom" & "knowledge" and "Power" and trying to be just like God that is sweet and delicious as a pursuit (at first) but eventually, it just begins to destroy you......

Falgn0n.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: An Old Email
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2008, 09:12:25 AM »

Joe,

Any unrepented sin will be burned out of us in the LOF, if we are judging ourselves now that means God is dragging us through the fire of His Spirit in this age.

Does that mean that anything I have done but have sincerely said I was sorry for and was ashamed of, won't be revealed in the lake of fire?  I mean, this is really good news to me if that is true. 

Eileen

Yes Eileen!

Those who God has chosen to be converted in this life/age will not experience the Lake of Fire (on the receiving end) but will actually be a part of the Lake of Fire, His elect will be commissioned to be with Christ in converting  the masses as part of God's consuming fire. Even the prophets of old will be dependent on His chosen!


Rom 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Rom 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Rom 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

(read the whole chapter)


Quote
when we are sick and tired of eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil we diligently begin seeking the fruit of the Tree of Life (Christ).

I just love the way you put that! Like, too much of anything is just not good for you! The Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil is like honey and cream, but eventually, it's just begins to make you sick!
It's mankind's obsession with "wisdom" & "knowledge" and "Power" and trying to be just like God that is sweet and delicious as a pursuit (at first) but eventually, it just begins to destroy you......

Falgn0n.

Thanks Falgn0n,

Your addition made it even better!

Peace,

Joe

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