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How successful have you been at opening people's eyes?

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legoman:
Hi folks,

First day posting here.

I first came across Ray's articles about 8 months.  Intially I was blown away.  God finally made sense.  I had sometimes wondered if God was so good, why would he let many be tortured in a fire forever.  I couldn't resolve it, so I tended to just not think about it :)

Anyway when I first read Ray's teachings, I was so excited.  Things were making sense.  I initially tried to share it with my wife, but she didn't really get where I was coming from, and gave the standard responses like people go to hell because of free will, etc.  So we had a pretty heartfelt conversation, but she didn't really believe me.  The problem was I was still too new.  I was in info-overload mode.  I knew I had read something that explained all this, but I couldn't explain it to another person.

So I decided to take another tact, and slow down a bit.  I spent the next 8 months reading Ray's articles, re-reading them, reading other sources (like tentmaker), reading the counter arguments (like at CARM and elsewhere), and coming to my own conclusions.  My beliefs only got stronger.  And I find on re-reading Ray's articles and closely examining the bible, it is all starting to make sense, and I am now getting to the point where I can explain this to another person and back up what I am saying.

So my next step was to get practice in debating this.  I initially joined a non-christian relious forum that discussed Christianity a lot.  That was a mistake.  I tried posting about universalism there, but I either got the standard Christian answers, or a bunch of athiests saying "if there is no free will then there is no sin blah blah blah jesus was irrelevant then".  It was difficult debating without a common base.

My purpose in all this was to refine my understanding and see if I could prove to myself what Ray was saying was true and what the bible says.

So the next plan was to go to a Christian forum and start debating.  This is kindof where I'm at now.  I joined bibleforums.com (I have the same userid over there) and have been debating why we don't have free will and what really happens at death.  There is a hitch - "universalism" is not allowed to be debated in their main bible chat forum.  Kind of laughable.  I guess if they can't defend their position then I guess "no debate allowed" is the rule.  Anyway I have been trying to raise contradictions that the traditional church teaches and see where the debate leads.  I try to focus on the scriptures and keep the debate polite and respectable.

It has been a good learning experience for me and I'm getting good at finding passages, especially the ones Ray likes to quote :)

So that leads me to today.  So far I've only really talked about this with my wife and a few people online.  And no one has had the light bulb "go on" so to speak like it did for me.  I'm wondering what other peoples experiences were in this regard?  It seems so obvious to me now, that Jesus is the savior of all and God will's it.  That's what the bible says and it couldn't be any clearer.

I would really like to share this all with my parents, specifically my Mom, but so far haven't had the courage.  My mom is a staunch Christian, and she gave me my Christian convictions.  While growing up we actually changed churches several times because my parents didn't think that particular church was teaching what the bible said.  So I am hopeful my Mom will be open to this, but I need to have my foundation setup first.

Any encouraging words or stories would be appreciated :)

Thanks,
Legoman

Linny:
Hi Legoman, Welcome. I am like you in that I like to debate. However, with age, I have learned that debating isn't always the thing God wants me to do.

I have taken to heart and used a scripture that Ray used about people asking me a question. Here are 3 translations...

1Pe 3:15

(ASV)  but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

(CEV)  Honor Christ and let him be the Lord of your life. Always be ready to give an answer when someone asks you about your hope.

(ESV)  but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

I have not spoken to anyone who is very deeply involved in the church UNLESS they have asked me a direct question that required me to come clean about something that is considered heresy to the church.

By doing this, the people who I have talked to have been open to what I had to say. And I don't go on and on unless I feel led to add to what they asked. For example, free will came up the other day with a friend. She would not be open to anything else I have learned but I did tell her how I felt about free will. Another friend brought up tithing to me and asked me a direct question. I gave her Ray's tithing paper after we spoke because she wanted to know more. There are only 3 others I have talked to about BT things and they were very interested.

My Brother in law is a pastor. It will take a direct nudge from the Lord before I will open my mouth to him. He has his doctorate in theology and is completely engulfed in Babylonian thinking. It would serve no purpose right now to speak up. I pray that God will open the door one day however.

So my advise to you is to wait on the Lord to let you know who is ready to hear it. Otherwise, don't throw your pearls to swine.  ;)

carol v:
Well, Lego, I wish I could be encouraging but in the 4 years I've been on this road, no one has listened yet. My boyfriend kind of sees the truth but then he puts the car in reverse if it means he can't be a Presbyterian. I've been told by a great friend that I'm talking to Satan on the internet and this was just in telling her that her little sister was asleep and not currently with Jesus. When I showed her the scriptures, she said I was twisting it. After many such experiences, I have given up.

Very few people are called to be teachers. Debating in forums is going to go nowhere. Usually, when we debate, we  have a feeling of pride that we are right and they are wrong. That feeling of pride in ourselves itself will make the argument ineffective because God is going to burn the pride right out of us. It's absolutely true that only God can open eyes. You won't debate anyone to the truth.

You probably already know the following scriptures but they have helped me immensely.

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Tit 3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Tit 3:10  A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject;

So Peter lets me know that my job is to simply be ready with an answer IN MEEKNESS -- in other words, if God wants me to talk someone will ask me. I try to follow this and when I don't, I notice that I have no effect except to make myself look like a self-righteous know-it-all.

And Titus tells me what I said above -- that debating is foolish and vain and usually for my own pride. I'm not supposed to do it. And if I do happen to find myself in some kind of debate then one or two admonitons is all I am to give it.

I was so thrilled when I first learned these truths that I thought everyone would be SO happy to know them too. Uh-uh. If someone isn't asking a question then don't tell them more than a simple witness for why you have "the hope that is within you."

God wants us humble and if we aren't, well He will certainly burn it out. So always witness "in meekness and in fear."

And I have made every single mistake I just listed and still sometimes fall into it. A recent discussion with my ex-husband and his newest woman friend come to mind. I am as guilty of vain babblings as anyone but I do it much, much less. Those fires God sets aren't pleasant!

Carol

AK4:
Hey welcome Legoman,

I am with you on the overload thing.  It was like WOW.  I tried to discuss stuff with my brother and he would put a defense and all the answers would come to me at once but i would (and still do) get so overloaded with answers,  that i couldnt answer at that time.  Then later about 15 minutes after we stopped discussing, the answer was clear as day.  My biggest problem i think i have is when i talk to someone about God, its like i get so excited and happy that my thoughts get jumbled up and it gets hard for me to focus and just answer whats at hand.  

I have the problem sometimes where in trying to answer whatever it is at hand, i try not to give a complicated answer--basically i try to answer the question with the simpliest answer, but then realise "well jeez, they wont know what im talking about if they dont know this over here". And then i get a little scatterbrained.

The approach i use the most is i try to get a feel on what may be the most pertanent thing in someones mind (religion or whatever).  For example there is this guy at work who thinks hes real smart so if figured i see what he thought on free will and of course he says we have free will. So i challenge him to tell me if he could tell me one thing he has ever done that didnt have a cause.  He couldnt find anything and that "lured him in".  I figure if you can prove one thing that may be somewhat important to that person theyll listen to you more.

I want to do the same thing in another forum, practise to see how to refute those who contradict but i dont know of any forums.  Like you, i see the value it does in helping me learn.  I learn alot from this forum and am very thankful for everyone here.

As for opening any eyes to God, thats a big fat zero.  With Gods help i would say out of maybe 10 i have about 3 or 4 halves or quarter points. (So i might have 1) Their eyes may open to one thing, but not all.  Somethings they just wont let go.

In Jesus,

Anthony

Akira329:
Hey Legoman,
Your going to find this road a difficult one!
We have to remember only God can drag them to these truths.
I'm convinced no amount of debate will open another man's eyes unless he's ready to receive it.
When their ready to receive it, they will ask you.

My close friend since high school was introduced to this site by me(only after he asked)
We talked a few times through email and he said he would give it some thought/reflect on the site and what I said.
I haven't heard from him since.

We grew up debating and fighting church doctrine all our lives,
I thought he would have been the most receptive friend but I'm not so sure.

My thoughts and advice would be to live your life according to the truth and believe me,
people will wonder why you live the way you do and be prepared to be called ever name in the book!!

Antaiwan

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