Hi,
As I said I have been discussing free will a lot at another site, so I thought I would describe here what I believe the truth to be is. If this isn't the right forum for this post please let me know.
And please let me know if you think I've got anything wrong. This is all from Ray's teachings, but sometimes it takes a further study to get what he is saying.
The logical argumentFree will cannot coexist with a God who is all-knowing and has perfect foreknowledge. If God has perfect foreknowledge, then it is not possible to make a choice that contradicts that foreknowledge. Therefore our choices are not "free". QED. Our choices are caused. We don't have a "free" will, we have a "caused" will, because every decision we make is based on some other cause. If you trace all the causes back to the beginning of our life, eventually we get to our birth place, who our parents were, and what we were taught as children. If you keep going, all causes eventually trace back to God. God is the ultimate cause of everything.
The scriptural argumentThere are many many scriptures that Ray and others have posted that make it clear we couldn't have free will. God is the potter we are the clay. God hardens pharaoh's heart. We don't choose God, God chooses us. Side note: not sure if you guys know of Martin Zender, but he has a pretty good website on the concepts. I like to refer to his article on free will, it is a good intro to the topic (
http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/free_will_and_the_oh_well_creed.htm).
I won't list all the scripture here as most people here know where to find them.
ImplicationsThis is where I probably get into trouble
so I would appreciate responses here if I am way off base.
All choices are caused and are based on our environment, what we have learned, our previous experiences, our circumstances, etc. God sets up these causes. God is the ultimate cause of everything.
Because we don't have free will, we have a caused will, we make choices that have been predetermined. Ray says "we volunteer" to make the choice. We volunteer to sin, even though God has set it all up.
This is where I have a bit of trouble. Ray says God is the cause of everything, but God doesn't force us to sin. God just sets up the circumstances and then we come along and can do nothing but sin. Does this sound right? I always get people asking me well if God sets everything up, then he is the one that makes us sin. It is hard to get away from that reasoning, but I sort of see what Ray means when he says "we volunteer to sin".
Comments welcome.Original SinGod intended to us to sin. God designed us that way. Does that mean God sinned? No. Did God create sin? I'm not sure on this one. Did he actually create the concept of sin?
Is it fair to say God create the "sin of this world" when he designed us to sin? Likewise,
did God create the concepts of goodness/sin, or were they intrinsic to himself/the universe?God also designed satan to sin. Satan didn't fall from being an angel. He was created at the time of creation along with everything else - he sinned from the beginning, and god intended it that way. Satan is the one who causes sin to enter the world - but who is in charge of Satan? God is. So in that way God causes sin to enter the world.
Is it fair to say this?ExamplesHere are some examples I like to use to help understand free will. Again I appreciate any comments you have.
The robot exampleThis one is good because people always bring up the "I am not a robot" argument.
Making a choice does not imply free will. The robot argument will illustrate this. A robot is just a computer with some fancy mechanisms attached to it. The computer makes choices. But it doesn't have free will. No one claims a computer has free will. The computer takes input, and then makes a decision based on that input. It can do this very quickly, giving the appearance that it is "smart". But in reality it is just a bunch of bits, 0's and 1's, tiny transistors, switching on and off in different combinations and patterns. That's all a computer is.
Now, we do the same thing. We take input, and make a decision. That's it! We make choices, but they are not free - they are based on the "input" around us, what we have learned, what our environment is. In that way, we are the same as a computer.
But in another way we are completely different from a computer. We are superior to the computer. The computer doesn't know its a computer. We know we are human. We are self-aware, the computer (or robot) is not. We have the capacity for love, emotion; we can learn and gain experience.
The ultimate point of it all is for us to learn good and bad - learn righteousness. God does this by providing the experience he intends for each of us. Its all part of God's plan.
The movie analogyYou could liken the creation to one giant movie/script. God wrote, produced, directed and even stars in this movie. We all play our roles as well.
God can fast-forward to the end to see how the movie plays out if he wants, but he doesn't really have to because he wrote, produced, and directed the movie. He knows how it turns out.
We make our choices, but its like the choices that characters make in a movie. No matter how many times you watch the movie, the characters still make the same choices. So it is with us (from God's perspective). Our choices are cast in stone, we are just following the script of God's plan. We don't have free will anymore than the characters in a movie have free will.
Notice I said God even stars in this movie. He plays the role he has written for himself. Of course he appears in the form of Jesus, and his resurrection, but in other ways as well. God answers prayers. God appears to some and speaks to them (Adam in the Garden, Moses, etc).
Its a process. We will learn good and evil. We will learn righteousness. We will gain experience. We will be perfected.
SummaryI apologize for the rambling length of this post. This is just some stuff I've been discussing with other people that I've pasted together for your perusal. If you think I'm way off base,
please let me know.
It is still hard to accept it sometimes. Its tough to unlearn 30 years of people telling you that you have free will.
I look forward to your comments.
Cheers,
Kevin (Legoman)