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Author Topic: John 3:13  (Read 3610 times)

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EKnight

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John 3:13
« on: September 06, 2008, 12:23:04 PM »

John 3:13  There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven

In regard to the above quoted scripture, I posed this question to my husband about my "christian" sister's belief.  She believes that if you believe in Jesus Christ at the time of your death, you go directly to heaven.  So I recited the above quote to my husband and asked him how my sister reconciles this scripture to her belief.  He said that she would say that this was true at the time that Christ said it because He had not yet died on the cross and that her belief in immediate judgement/resurrection at the time of death is referring to AFTER Christ died for our sins.

What would be your rebuttal to this explanation?

Eileen
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hillsbororiver

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2008, 12:59:48 PM »

Hi Eileen,

It amazes me how (but I know why) folks cling to this most illogical doctrine in the face of scriptures which make it fairly plain that the dead are dead and our hope is in the resurrection and that Judgment comes before any punishment (or reward).

What about Abraham, Moses, David, and the OT Prophets, where are they presently since they died before Christ was raised from the dead (or even born for that matter, with the exception of John The Baptist of course)?

If everyone goes to their reward or punishment immediately after death what purpose does the resurrection and White Throne Judgment serve? It would seem rather redundant to be "in heaven" then have to come back down here to be "resurrected" or to be "in hell" to face the WTJ just to go back again!

Peace to you,

Joe 
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Dave-in-PA

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 01:14:15 PM »

Hi Eileen,
I think Joe is correct in his comment.  The idea that we go straight to heaven never fit with the idea of a day of judgement and was one of the nagging questions I had for years that Ray has corrected for me.

I think I Corinthians 15 is helpful in refuting the idea of dead believers being in heaven.  Paul writes starting in verse 20:  "Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
(bold italics mine)

I think these verses make it clear our resurrection is in the future, when He comes again.  It just makes no sense, as Joe points out, to be resurrected, and then resurrected again in the future. The only way Paul makes sense here is if the dead are dead.
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AK4

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 01:21:41 PM »

Then what would be the point of the whole book of Revelations you can ask them.  For that fact the whole NT save the the 4 Gospels.

Besides her to explain why David still isnt in heaven after Christ died for our sins

Acts 2:29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'"

and

2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hope this helps

In Jesus,

Anthony
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EKnight

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2008, 01:21:55 PM »

What about Abraham, Moses, David, and the OT Prophets, where are they presently since they died before Christ was raised from the dead (or even born for that matter, with the exception of John The Baptist of course)?

Her answer to you would likely be that they were resurrected to eternal life after Christ died and until that point they were either asleep or waiting in some other realm.  I don't think she is one that believes that all people who existed before Christ are burning in hell for all eternity.  In fact I once asked her what happens to people who never received the word of Christ and she just says, "we don't know what is in ones heart at the time of their death".  That's just an unscripturally pat answer and it doesn't answer what happened to those who existed before Christ.   

Eileen
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Kat

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2008, 01:32:28 PM »


Hi Eileen,

Here is an email that might help explain this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5112.msg40285.html#msg40285 ---

There is nothing about the Truth or God's Word that should make us sad. When people die, they are dead.  This is not a terrible thing. God likens death to sleep in many many Scriptures. The only hope of the dead is a resurrection from the dead (a doctrine that has no value or importance in the Church any longer).  Read my short paper: "An Encouraging Word About Death" on my home page.
There is no consciousness in death, hence no one will ever experience being dead. Many will experience the act of dying (unless one is killed instantly or dies in one's sleep), but once we are dead we experience and know nothing (Ecc. 9:5). In resurrection, God in effect, awakens us out of our sleep of death (Psalm 13:3). Our hope is not in heaven, but in resurrection (I Cor. 15 whole chapter).
 
Now John 14:2--"In my Father's house are many mansions [Greek, abodes--same word translated abode in verse 23] : if it were not so, I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME AGAIN, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am [ON THIS EARTH, not heaven], THERE ye may be also...Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and COME AGAIN UNTO YOU..." (Also verse 28). What will happen to all the Believing Saints who have died over the centuries?  When and where will they receive the "abodes in the Father's House?"  They will live and reign as kings and priests with Jesus at resurrection (Rev. 20:4).  "And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH"  (Rev. 5:10).  Our reward, our special office or abode in God's Kingdom is to SAVE THE REST OF HUMANITY.

God be with you,
Ray

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EKnight

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2008, 02:38:49 PM »

Ha ha Roger, you are right.  She already gave me that scripture "Today you will be with me in paradise".  I never did get to explain it to her because I don't want to be be drawn into a debate I am not knowledgeable enough to win. I did direct her here and asked her to compare her beliefs with those stated here but I am sure she questioned her pastor about it and he persuaded her otherwise.  She never discussed it with me.  Oh well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water.......

Eileen
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WhoAmI

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2008, 04:24:25 AM »

I can remember when I was young and was in a Sunday school class. They were trying to tell us that where you go (heaven or hell ) depends on what happens on your last breath. So I said are you telling me a person can live all their life doing right and trying to serve God but lets say a day or two before they die they happen to slip in their walk and since they die in their sins they are now doomed to eternal hell. They said yes.
I then said so if you have a terrible sinner who kills, steal etc. and he is able to whisper "save me Jesus" with his last breath he gets a free ticket to heaven? They said yes.

It is complete madness what they teach!


Jeff
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Falgn0n

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2008, 06:26:17 AM »

In the "pentecostal/charismatic" church that I used to be a part of, we used to teach that there are TWO judgements: The Great White Throne Judgement, which is a judgement of the unbelieving - all those in this judgement get "hell". And then there's the "Judgement Seat of Christ" where all the believers are judged "ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS" where they get various rewards (the fire shall test the quality of each man's work, etc...)

There was also the whole teaching about how OT saints were kept in the "upper regions" of hell, known as "paradise" (Ref: the thief that Jesus said would be in "paradise") or "Abraham's Bosom" (Ref: the Lazarus parable: "Abraham's Bosom"), pending the death & resurrection of Jesus:

Eph 4:8-10 (captives freed / Jesus descended to free captives from Hell)

And for YEARS it all made perfect sense to me

 ???

But anyway...



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Samson

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 10:15:32 AM »

Eileen,


           This might help towards your discussion in regards to your Sister. Acts. 2:34, 35 " Actually David did not ascend to the Heavens, but he himself says, The Lord said to my lord: Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet. " It shows that at least in this point in time, David couldn't be in Heaven, still only Jesus. You might use the example and passage regarding the Resurrection of Jesus close friend Lazarus( John. 11:1-25 ). Why! You might ask, because LAZURUS WAS DEAD IN THE TOMB FOR THREE DAYS, UPON JESUS RAISING HIM FROM THE DEAD, WHERE WAS HE, SURELY THE NOMINAL CHURCHES WOULDN'T SAY HE WAS IN HELL PUNISHMENT, THEY ADMIT HE WAS A GOOD MAN AND FRIENDS WITH JESUS; IF HE WENT TO HEAVEN WHILE DEAD IN THAT TOMB, HE DIDN'T MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT IT. ALSO IF HE HAD GONE TO THE SPIRITUAL REALM OF HEAVEN DURING THOSE THREE DAYS, HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN UPSET WITH JESUS FOR BRINGING HIM BACK TO THIS TERRIBLE WORLD THROUGH RESURRECTION( A TEMPORARY ONE AT THAT).  ;D

                           When reading that passage in John mentioned above, Jesus tells Martha that Lazarus is asleep, further explaining to her that Lazarus has died. Jesus resurrected Lazarus, Jairus Daughter, the widow of Nains Son and there's no mention of them being anywhere else when awoken by Jesus.

                            If your Sister is just interested in debating in general and not sincerely searching for answers, of what value would it be to continue discussing this with her. That's a question only you can answer.

                            Hope this helps Eileen, if not, my mistake.

                                       Kind Regards, Samson.
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Dave-in-PA

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 11:47:42 AM »

I really appreciate you bringing up this topic Eileen and I am impressed with all the responses.  Almost as much as the topic of universal salvation, the question of where one goes when they die is of great interest to me as far as being able to refute the traditional church notion of one's soul going immediately to heaven or hell.  This thread has been very useful.

In the last year both my father and a beloved brother-in-law have passed and I had to quietly endure friends and family express with confidence that "they are in a better place" or "He is in heaven enjoying his well deserved rewards" or some such blather.  Out of respect and courtesy I've had to hold my tongue to avoid arguments, but boy, I wished I could have set them all straight.  The more I read Ray's work, as well as other books on these issues, the more I see just how wrong the church teachings are and how more frustrating these heresies become.  The more I appreciate the incredible beauty of the God's word which, when read correctly, makes so much sense and is logical and complete.

I'm sure that for many of those who grew up in the church, the idea that loved ones who have died are presently in heaven is very comforting.  I suppose there was a time when it was comforting for me as well.   But what I have discovered through the death of my dad and brother-in-law is that the TRUTH, so clearly revealed in the scriptures, is far MORE comforting and exciting even.  I know my loved ones are dead, not somewhere else, but dead.  BUT, I know without a doubt that someday soon, we will all be resurrected and reunited in the glory of Christ, the Savior of the world.  I know for them this wait is but an instant, as it will be for me as well, until we are awoken from death into immortality.
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EKnight

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 12:08:40 PM »

Thanks for all your answers.  I did say to her "do you really think that as people die (many per day) they are being judged like a check list? You, Heaven, You, Hell, You heaven, You, Hell....?"  I said there is a "day" of judgment.  I guess for her everyday is judgment day for someone. 

I don't want to dis my sis here because she, like me, was not satisfied in our faith and sought better, but these things like likening death to sleep and judgment and free will seem so obvious to me.  I will admit that not everything here at BT is clear to me but those things are.

Thanks again,

Eileen
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carol v

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2008, 01:53:35 PM »

My best friend, a Methodist, is 100% certain that her little sister who fell into the fireplace at 3 years of age is "with Jesus." I stupidly tried to teach her otherwise by showing this specific scripture. She ended up telling me that I was twisting scripture and talking to Satan on the internet. I don't discuss 'religion' with her much anymore.

What I wanted to point out is the two verses before John 3:13 which pretty much sum up the whole problem:

Joh 3:11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Notice that Christ said they wouldn't believe Him before He even said it. If they won't believe Christ Himself...well, they 'ain't' gonna listen to this lowly old West Texas broad!
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gmik

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2008, 02:41:29 PM »

Rodger, good post!!  I can just see you giving her a bit of your quick wit! :D ;)
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winner08

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2008, 07:49:17 PM »

Question: Is there just one resurrection? What is the difference between the first to rise in Christ and the great white throne judgement? After the first fruits are risen is there another resurrection for the rest? Sorry I know this has been ansewer many times I just don't remember.

                                               Darren
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Linny

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2008, 09:33:11 PM »

Hi Eileen,
When reading " I tell you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise.. " IF that is how she thinks it must be read, will also refute what she believes.

If Jesus told the criminal hanging beside Him that he would be with Him THAT day, then Jesus lied.
You will recall that Jesus told the disciples upon seeing them again after 3 days in the tomb, that He had not yet been to His Father. Therefore, we know that Jesus COULDN'T have been in paradise with the criminal that day, could He?

That one bothered me before I found BT and before I learned that the comma was in the wrong place. :-\
So to me, either place you put the comma causes a problem for traditional teaching.

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Falconn003

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2008, 12:34:05 AM »

Well the pickle did not show up, her husband has fallen ill, prayers go out to him.

As the evening dawned, the only question of any importance i was asked " what i thought of McCain's running mate, ((their pastor hagee endorse McCain, to which McCain later refuted hagee's own endorsement)), I answered " Knowing now that i am a member of the Spiritual living church of Jesus the Christ, i do not whore myself with politics."

I apologize should my answer offend anyone.

We then proceeded to Finnish our wine coolers. and let the night steal away.

Rodger
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 12:35:35 AM by Falconn003 »
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Kat

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2008, 12:56:05 AM »


Hi Lin,

I never thought of it like that.  But that is a good second refutation that he was not in heaven that day.

Darren,

Quote
Is there just one resurrection? What is the difference between the first to rise in Christ and the great white throne judgement? After the first fruits are risen is there another resurrection for the rest?

One resurrection, but called by two different names.

John 5:28-29  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Act 24:15  I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

In this Scripture it says "for the hour is coming."  Now what this indicates to me is that "a resurrection" will happen in a short period of time, because an hour would mean less than a day.  Jesus states here that "all who are in the graves," this would mean the Elect and everybody else are raised at that time.  Because it goes on to state that this includes the first resurrection "the resurrection of life" and "the resurrection of condemnation."  This "condemnation" is judgment that will come upon the world at that time.

1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
v. 32  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

"The resurrection of condemnation" of the world is the great white throne judgment.

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

But there will be an order of things at that "hour."

1Co 15:23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

1Th 4:15  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
v. 16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v. 17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So the first resurrection takes place, the Elect are with Christ and now on the same day the rest are raised and judged at the great white Throne judgement. Again John 5.

John 5:28-29  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Well I hope you can follow my reasoning there, but that's what I see in the Scripture.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 10:23:48 AM by Kat »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: John 3:13
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2008, 01:50:17 AM »

I see it much like Kat does. It's one ressurrection, just has different connotations depending on who you are when the ressurection happens. If you are the elect, well its the ressurection to life, if you are the world, than its the ressurection of condemnation, the great white throne of judgement. Same hour, same place, same ressurection, cya there ;)

God bless,

Alex
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