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John 3:13

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EKnight:
John 3:13  There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven

In regard to the above quoted scripture, I posed this question to my husband about my "christian" sister's belief.  She believes that if you believe in Jesus Christ at the time of your death, you go directly to heaven.  So I recited the above quote to my husband and asked him how my sister reconciles this scripture to her belief.  He said that she would say that this was true at the time that Christ said it because He had not yet died on the cross and that her belief in immediate judgement/resurrection at the time of death is referring to AFTER Christ died for our sins.

What would be your rebuttal to this explanation?

Eileen

hillsbororiver:
Hi Eileen,

It amazes me how (but I know why) folks cling to this most illogical doctrine in the face of scriptures which make it fairly plain that the dead are dead and our hope is in the resurrection and that Judgment comes before any punishment (or reward).

What about Abraham, Moses, David, and the OT Prophets, where are they presently since they died before Christ was raised from the dead (or even born for that matter, with the exception of John The Baptist of course)?

If everyone goes to their reward or punishment immediately after death what purpose does the resurrection and White Throne Judgment serve? It would seem rather redundant to be "in heaven" then have to come back down here to be "resurrected" or to be "in hell" to face the WTJ just to go back again!

Peace to you,

Joe 

Dave-in-PA:
Hi Eileen,
I think Joe is correct in his comment.  The idea that we go straight to heaven never fit with the idea of a day of judgement and was one of the nagging questions I had for years that Ray has corrected for me.

I think I Corinthians 15 is helpful in refuting the idea of dead believers being in heaven.  Paul writes starting in verse 20:  "Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
(bold italics mine)

I think these verses make it clear our resurrection is in the future, when He comes again.  It just makes no sense, as Joe points out, to be resurrected, and then resurrected again in the future. The only way Paul makes sense here is if the dead are dead.

AK4:
Then what would be the point of the whole book of Revelations you can ask them.  For that fact the whole NT save the the 4 Gospels.

Besides her to explain why David still isnt in heaven after Christ died for our sins

Acts 2:29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'"

and

2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hope this helps

In Jesus,

Anthony

EKnight:
What about Abraham, Moses, David, and the OT Prophets, where are they presently since they died before Christ was raised from the dead (or even born for that matter, with the exception of John The Baptist of course)?

Her answer to you would likely be that they were resurrected to eternal life after Christ died and until that point they were either asleep or waiting in some other realm.  I don't think she is one that believes that all people who existed before Christ are burning in hell for all eternity.  In fact I once asked her what happens to people who never received the word of Christ and she just says, "we don't know what is in ones heart at the time of their death".  That's just an unscripturally pat answer and it doesn't answer what happened to those who existed before Christ.   

Eileen

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