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Author Topic: Need teaching - help  (Read 3231 times)

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Sirach

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Need teaching - help
« on: September 11, 2008, 09:34:33 AM »

A lot of times we get blamed for taking God's Words out of context. Yesterday evening i saw a short clip on this on sozoproductions where Peter takes two little pieces out of two different psalms to show that Judas had to betray our Lord. I saw it once and didnt study it...but i will soon.

My first question is, in the clip it is sayd that:

The sum of Gods word is truth. It stated that this is comming from Psalm 119-160 and John 17-17.

Now, when i read the KJV, and my Dutch translation, i read no such thing. Can anybody tell me what it is saying in the original Greek ?

My second question concerns a paper i was reading at sozo website, called "case against hell"

I quote:

When shall it come to pass that: “On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine- the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken” (Isaiah 26:6-8).

offcourse i read it myself...but when i also read verses 9 to the end, then it is followed by this:

9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. 10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.  trodden down under: or, threshed, etc trodden down for...: or, threshed in Madmenah11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands. 12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.

My obvious question is..who is MOAB ? There will be a feast for all peoples, but Moab is an exception. Can someone explain this to me ?

This kind of thing is what is bothering me...becos it is not the only time when i read verses, but when i read a bit further, then in many occasions exceptions are being made in the Scripture...like, John 3: 16...and 17

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

People tell me that...whosoever believed in Him should not perish...and therefor the ones who dont believe do perish. Also...the world might be saved...why is the word might in this sentence ? Is that not telling that it might be but it isnt ?

Are these verses properly translated, or do i miss the meaning of them ?

your brother in Christ

Robin

 


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carol v

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008, 12:12:38 PM »

Lots of questions there Sirach.  One at a time:

The “Sum” of the Scripture

2Pe 1:20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

       (CLV) knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own    explanation.

(KJV)  Psa 139:17  How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

(CLV) Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."


The CLV is the Concordant Literal Translation -- Psa 119:160 is different in the KJV but as you can see there is other scriptural support because NO SCRIPTURE IS OF IT'S OWN INTERPRETATION ;)

Also always keep in mind --

Mat 18:16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

You can find lots of scripture on "two to three witnesses" but this Matthew one says it clearly --
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AK4

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2008, 12:20:51 PM »

Remember, the whole bible is a parable.
I believe you have to look at verses like those as you would look at the parables in the NT
IMO i think in first part of those verses  God is (1)either stating His overall plan for mankind (2)or the elect in the age to come
and then the when he comes to exceptions He has to talking about those who will go through the eonian judgement in the age to come.

When you look at alot of the OT verses like this you will see it alot.

This is just my honest opinion and it helps me reconcile what may be a seen as a contradiction to everyone will be saved.

Moag, Gog and Magog and all those others---I have no clue

Quote
A lot of times we get blamed for taking God's Words out of context. Yesterday evening i saw a short clip on this on sozoproductions where Peter takes two little pieces out of two different psalms to show that Judas had to betray our Lord. I saw it once and didnt study it...but i will soon.
Ray has wrote about this somewhere on this site.  I cant remember where though

Hope this helps

Anthony
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carol v

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008, 12:40:06 PM »

Context of Scripture

Paul Did NOT Teach in Context

Paul quotes the Psalms and applies the verse to Christ.

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Psalms he is quoting talks of “man”.

Psa 8:4  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor.
Psa 8:6  Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:


The OT verse is talking about Israel, yet Matthew uses them of Christ:

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mat 2:14  When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.


And here is one from Peter:

Act 1:16 said, "Men! Brethren! Fulfilled must be the scripture in which the holy spirit said before through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who becomes the guide of those apprehending Jesus,

Act 1:20 For it is written in the scroll of the Psalms, Let his domicile become desolate, And let no one be dwelling in it, and 'Let his supervision be taken by another.' "


This quote from Peter is not even found that way in Psalms -- it's a combination of lots of different Psalms with David asking God for protection.

Psa 69:25 Let their domicile become desolate; Let no one be dwelling in their tents.

Psa 109:8 May his days come to be few; May his supervision be taken by another.


There are dozens if not more examples of Christ, Paul, and the disciples quoting scripture in pieces from the OT that are "in context" talking about some other subject and using them to illustrate something completely different.

If you want more examples of this, please feel free to pm because there is a whole paper devoted to this.
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carol v

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 01:06:06 PM »

Moab -- Just one of many tribes, such as the Philistines, that oppose God. When you read the OT you will find Moabites and Ammonites and the list goes on...

Anthony is right. The entire Bible is a parable of not only how God will save both the chosen and the called, but also of what happens inside us in our spiritual journey towards righteousness. Moab does not represent some man or people that will not be saved. Moab represents everything in opposition to God which will be trodden down into dust.

Remember that WE are DUST -- our flesh is dust.

You cannot ever understand the Bible as long as you want it to have literal meaning.

And if anyone ever tries to tell you that God's enemies will not be saved, keep this scripture in mind:

Eze 16:55  When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Was there ever a greater enemy to God than Sodom? Well, Sodom will be reconciled even before Israel. That's the literal truth for those who want the literal explanation.

But for your own understanding, if you ever have a question about what a certain scripture is telling YOU -- read every single one according to this truth:

Deu 8:3  And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.  

And here is your 2nd witness:

Luk 4:4  And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

The entire scripture is a parable about what is happening inside every person ever born. You are living God's every word. The Moab inside of you is being downtrodden into dust so the Sodom that has now been purified can be returned to it's former estate.

You see how all this is fitting together -- every scripture fits into the context of you. You are David (Israel), you are Goliath (a Philistine), you are Judas, and one day when God's work in you is complete, you will be like Christ.

Andrew Jukes book, The Types of Genesis, is wonderful and includes a long chapter on how the story of the creation is really the story of man going from darkness to light to rest. Revelation is a "prophecy that you must keep" -- it is about you. From Genesis to Revelation, when you read about Moab being downtrodden into dust -- it is you.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 01:08:47 PM by carol v »
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carol v

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008, 01:24:19 PM »

The verse in John is easy for two reasons --

First -- no single scripture is of its own private interpretation as we established above -- the evidence toward all the world being saved is so overwhelming that to pick out a single one would contradict every other one.

If you want a great primer on all the scriptures in an easy format, get "Hope Beyond Hell" by Gerry Deauchemin. I think I'm spelling that right. Or you can pm me and I'll send ya my huge Word doc that includes tons of them.

BUT -- here is the important part that totally proves it -- You boldfaced that part of that scripture that says "Whosoever believeth in Him..."  and that is absolute truth as all God's word is. No mistranslation at all.

So who does Scripture say is going to "believeth" -- "every" and "all."

Isa 45:23  I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Psa 22:27  All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

Psa 86:9  All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


And then there is this:

Joh 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Whew -- I need to go get some work done!
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carol v

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008, 01:33:10 PM »

Well, I apologize to the moderators if I've crossed the line from answering questions into teaching. I hope I've just showed the scriptures that answered Sirach's questions with as little "teaching" as possible.

Sirach -- such big questions you have ;)
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 01:44:02 PM »

And I'm very pleased that he asked them, because if he hadn't I wouldn't get to read such great answers.  Thanks, Carol.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 01:47:12 PM »


Carol, your answers were very good.

Here is an email that gives a broad answer to John 3:16.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6878.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Sirach

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 07:28:20 PM »

All...and specially Carol V....thanks so very much...this was exactly what i was looking for...great help

warmest regards
Robin
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 09:36:49 PM »

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"

Hows that for context?

;)

God bless,

Alex
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Sirach

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2008, 05:25:57 AM »

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"

Hows that for context?

;)

God bless,

Alex

Thx Alex...i read that whole chapter, and that whole chapter is very interesting...it also gives a glimps on how our God works

Blessings
Robin
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Heidi

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2008, 07:36:49 AM »

WOW!  Thanks for this thread guys, it has been very interesting.

God bless
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Richard D

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 09:40:18 AM »


This is wonderful! Thank you for the post Sirach and also you too Carol for your input as I enjoy learning the things of God.   :)

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carol v

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 12:40:44 PM »

I've been thinking a lot about how I have lived every word and I see how I've wandered around the desert for years knowing about God but not necessarily listening to him. I've taken the manna He has given me for granted. I've worshiped a few golden calves whenever I thought Moses back was turned.

He told me to kill all the Philistines when I crossed the Jordan but I only killed some of them. And those dad gum Philistines keep attacking me all the time...God was right as usual.

I especially relate to Judges. I've crossed into the Promised Land but I still forget God's lessons. So He punishes me, I learn for awhile again and then I'm off to do my own thing. He has to send me into slavery every once awhile to really teach me a lesson and then He will send another "judge" to help me. And we start all over -- chapter after chapter after chapter -- I'd have to go look up exactly how many judges there were but I'm sure the number has spiritual significance. Sometimes I have to spend years in Babylonian exile as punishment to really learn that lesson I was ignoring.

Then I'm just insisting that He send me a "king" -- the answer to everything -- which He has told me I don't need but I want it anyway. Then I find out that "be careful what you wish for" is a cliche for a reason. That answer I insisted on may turn out to be Saul -- a great king for awhile but not for long.

I've recommended Andrew Jukes "Types of Genesis" before but just want to emphasize again how much it has opened up the spiritual meaning of scripture to me. If you read the chapter on Noah's flood, you will never read scripture the same way again.
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Sirach

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2008, 09:36:39 PM »

Amen my sister...and i like to get a link to that Andrew Jukes article
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carol v

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2008, 04:54:02 PM »

Here is a really cool book preview of Types of Genesis

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=rJ7ASqW9xNQC&dq=andrew+jukes&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=sMgcw2B3vd&sig=3BXuTZ-dbxyiWrE8g46T1ZRp9es#PPA68,M1

Amazon has a few copies for 21.99 which isn't a bad price since it's out of print. I have a hardback from the 1960's which has a neon pink and yellow cover. It's very 60's.

I also saw some other bookstores offering on my Google search but I usually use amazon for it's customer service.

If you google him, skip the dingbat roller dancing on myspace ;D

Oh, on this site you can download several other Jukes books for free AND you can download something called L. Ray Smith's Lake of Fire.

http://www.savior-of-all.com/downloads.html
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winner08

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2008, 05:28:22 PM »

What exactly does no single scripture is of it's own interpretation. I think I know what that means but I am probably Now that I think about it, this seems pretty important so I would love to hear from y'all on this matter.

Darren
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Kat

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2008, 06:05:43 PM »


Hi Darren, 

What is meant by 'no single scripture is of it's own interpretation,' is that no Scripture stands alone as a proof of a teaching.  You must have a 'second witness' in the Scripture to prove a truth.

This is from the article 'Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word.'

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

TRUTH NUMBER 6

[A] "…that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16).

(B) "…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).

[C] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES…" (Rev. 11:3).

This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.
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Jesus tells us in parable of two great witnesses:

"Then said He unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which brings forth out of his treasure, NEW AND OLD" (Matt. 13:52).

What "new and old" treasures do "scribes" preserve for us regarding the "kingdom of heaven?" Why the NEW Covenant Scriptures and the OLD Covenant Scriptures, of course. And both the Old (Deut. 17:6 & 19:15), and the New (II Cor. 13:1 & Matt. 18:16) command that we must have two witnesses to establish every Word of God.


TRUTH NUMBER 7

[A] "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; COMPARING [or ‘matching’] SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 2:13).

(B) "And to this AGREE the words of the prophets; as it is written…" (Acts 15:15).

[C] "These [Bereans]… searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were SO [Gk: ‘in this way,’ ‘like’] (Acts 17:11).

[D] "AS You have sent Me into the world, EVEN SO have I sent them into the world" (John 17:18, and many, many other such comparisons).

The purpose for comparing spiritual with spiritual is to find a spiritual match. There is a spiritual match for every symbol in the book of Revelation. This is a powerful truth that will open the whole Bible to us.

In the previous truth we learned the need for two witnesses. In this truth we will learn the need for those two witnesses to be a "spiritual match." Let’s now "spiritually match" two witnesses and see the marvelous eye-opening result.
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But we learned that no witness can stand alone. We must have at least TWO WITNESSES to establish the truth of any doctrine. For the simple fact that orthodoxy absolutely refuses to give you a "spiritual match" to these Scriptures, it has enabled them to attach all kinds of unscriptural, extra-scriptural, anti-scriptural heresies to the above Scripture. Why won’t they give you a "second witness," and a "spiritual match" to the above Scripture? Because the only second witness which is a spiritual match to the above Scripture, destroys their whole pagan teaching regarding it, that’s why.
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 07:40:56 PM by Kat »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Need teaching - help
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2008, 06:15:28 PM »

What exactly does no single scripture is of it's own interpretation. I think I know what that means but I am probably Now that I think about it, this seems pretty important so I would love to hear from y'all on this matter.

Darren

Kat's is the better answer, Darren...but here's an example.  If we read the verse that talks about the Lake of Fire, we're left with nothing but a literal interpretation.  But when we add to that the verse that says God is a Consuming Fire then we can begin to see the spiritual truth.  The more scripture there is that points to God having to do with Fire and Fire having to do with God the more and more clear things become.  Same thing with Lake.

It's not enough with scripture to always rely on a dictionary definition, especially when both of those examples are symbolic.  God is NOT literal fire.  Nor is the Lake a literal body of water.  Without interpreting scripture with scripture, we'd be worshipping fire to keep from being burned up in it.   :)

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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