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Author Topic: Does anyone have doubts?  (Read 11550 times)

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faith2faith

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2008, 05:49:27 AM »

its best to stay in Gods word and read for our selves what Gods word says.
And i wouldn't advise anyone to follow ray, as his teachings are just
Guide lines for us to study, we as individuals are accountable for our fellowship
with God in his word, and ray is accountable for teaching them.

John 14:26). But the comforter (counselor/Helper/Intercessor/advocate
                  Strenghtener/Standby). the Holy Spirit, Whom the father
                  Will send in My name, He will teach you all things. And He
                  will cause you to recall everything i have told you.

so as for doubts or anything that anyone maybe going through, Stay in Prayer
Stay in the Word and Stay in Gods Love. :)   
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RSI

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2008, 06:34:11 AM »

Does anyone ever have doubts that what we have learned is really the truth?

I have no doubt that we have learned the real truth for the most part, the vast majority of Ray's teaching.

There is a feeling I get though when reading BT and the forum that I don't agree with and that is that all church goers have to come out of the church or they couldn't be a chosen one.  I think there are church people who are chosen but just haven't had their ears and eyes opened yet and may never in this life.  There were a few people still in the Seven Churches that the Spirit did not upbraid.

I think it is just amazing the way God has the whole, everything, planned out before the foundation of the world.

I don't know if I'll be part of the first fruits or not but I'm not gonna worry about it, just keep on plugging away, trying to love, trying to obey.

Something that I would like to see go away is the use of "chosen".  Somehow it is just awkard to talk to someone about "the called and chosen" as in "He may call you but not choose you" that is so tacky.  How about "the acceptable ones or the preferred or favorite ones".  Somehow that doesn't sound as conceited or haughty.  Ok, just my little quirk  :P

Love you all, Ray I
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faith2faith

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2008, 08:39:45 AM »

oh I couldn't agree with you more on that sudject about being called then chosen, the bible clearly says
that we were chosen before the foundations of the world. (Eph 1:4,5).

their are other scriptures that correspond to that 1 above in my post ( who are the chosen??).

Cheers   :)
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legoman

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2008, 06:08:44 PM »

Great posts everyone, it helps to see everyone's experiences and know you are not the only one going through these trials.  Kat, special thanks to you for digging up those different emails of Ray's.  They are very helpful for review.

The great thing about Ray's writings is it is all clearly backed up with scripture in a logical consistent way.  If people applied Ray's reasoning and scriptural references to mainstream Christianity, they would quickly see the error of their ways.  Ray untangles the mess we've all been taught, but the untangling takes a while.

I think for me this is how my doubts come in.  I'm a pretty obsessive compulsive logical kind of guy.  If I figured this out, why doesn't everyone else figure it out?  So my doubt kicks in, maybe its not everyone else that's wrong, but its me that's wrong.  Then I reread Ray's stuff and the logic kicks in again and I realize most everyone else is wrong :)

But like I said, it is a mountain of peer pressure we are up against.  It can be lonely.

It really is about digging deep.  I think Samson mentioned this in another thread.  To really understand this stuff, you have to dig deep.  Digging deep is natural for my obsessive compulsive nature.  But not everyone is like that. 

The free will stuff is tricky.  I think I get it figured out, but it is tough.  Even with the emails you posted Kat, I can still see that it is easy to "blame" God for everything if you are not careful.  Of course "blame" is the wrong word because that presupposes that God did something wrong.  Every part of God's plan is necessary, and is there for a reason.  Even the bad stuff.

Ricky, I will take a crack at your predestination/prayer question.

God has perfect foreknowledge, so he would know when you would be in need and praying.  In fact he planned for that to happen.  He set up the causes that led to you praying.  And he also has a response planned for the prayer - either positive or negative.

But from your perspective, you are living "in the now" and pray for something.  God planned that you would, and you do it without even realizing that God caused you to pray.

Its all part of his plan - He did this so we would be humbled and learn to trust and depend in God.

TTYL
Kevin

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Linny

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2008, 07:30:01 PM »

I think the free will thing is so hard for us to grasp because it has been forever spoken about. Not only do you hear it in the churches but even the secular world talks about our free will.
But to me, free will and a Sovereign-All Knowing God cannot go together logically.

This is an analogy that came to me one day driving home thinking about free will.

If I told you that I, as a Mom, ran my home in a pretty orderly fashion with children, who although not perfect, obeyed me most of the time without much fuss. That my kids, even if needing to be disciplined at times, would go to bed when I said, make their beds, do their chores as I expected. You probably could accept that.
But then if I also told you that my kids were allowed to do ANYTHING they wanted, ANYTIME they wanted, would you still think my home had order?
Of course not. You can't have it both ways. Either someone is in charge with final say in the outcome, or there is chaos.

My point is just that if God truly knows everything and truly has plans for the world that cannot be thwarted, then it is impossible for me to be able to do whatever I wish.

I heard a preacher the other day on the radio teaching about how we can get outside of God's Will and then we knock others out of His will, etc. What a crock! God's Will for me and for the outcome of the world He created will not be changed by a pion like me!  :-[

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dredroc

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2008, 08:00:35 PM »

No, but i had doubts for years about eternal torture in hell
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dewey

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Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2008, 08:20:32 PM »

Hi, Marques

That was an awfully good post and you backed it up with 2 scriptures and they were from the double edged sword.  You did good.  I had the same feelings that you had of the scriptures you posted when I read them.  Don't ask; I don't know why.  I know how but not why.  there is one more scripture that I would like to add that it will take some reading to even get a little bit out of it; but with meditation one can see there is more to this scripture than what meets the eye; and I believe it pertains to this subject "Does anyone have doubts?"  This is what came to me when I read all of them.  There were a number of members who posted some awesomely good posts.  Some even with scripture; but all posts were from the heart.  I love you guys.

I have one more scripture and here it is:  COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regards to a religious festival, a new moon celebration or a sabbath day. 

Love y'ans

Dewey & Paula said it

Goin' out on a limb for Jesus 'cause that's where the fruit's at
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pylady

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2008, 11:27:58 PM »

Hi Ricky,

I wanted to add my two cents worth to this discussion because this is something that I've been marveling about lately.  You asked "How is it possible to HONESTLY love God from the heart without free will?  How can I?  The answer is we can't.  Neither you nor I, nor anyone can love God on our own with or without free will.

1Cor 2:14  For the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

The carnal natural man simply cannot know or understand the spiritual.  I've asked myself what proof do I really have that God exists.  I cannot see Him, I cannot see a picture of Him, I cant email Him, or call Him on the phone.  And I know noone else can either.  All of my physical senses and experiences fail me when it comes to knowing God!  What proof do I really have that the Scriptures are from Him.  I don't know anyone who saw Jesus when He walked the earth, or saw Him resurrected. 

Some would say believing in God is just a step above believing in Santa Claus or the easter bunny.  What solid proof do I have to give them?  I can't hand them a picture of Him or give them His address.  Some would say it's just imagination - something that only exists in our minds, but not in reality. 

But I know with my whole heart and mind and every fiber of my being that He exists.  Why?  I can't really explain it rationally!

At night I go into my bedroom to study and pray.  My Father is in that room with me teaching me, listening to my prayer.  Just as real as my husband who is watching tv on the other side of that door.  My husband says he doesn't know if there is a god, but probably not.  And he really has no interest in talking about it or thinking about it.  He's just not interested.

Why do I know, feel, experience God's presence while my husband knows, feels, experiences nothing?  There is nothing in me that makes me different from him.  Why do I pray to Someone I cannot see, why do I spend endless hours studying to learn more about Someone I cannot prove exists?  Why do I love with a passion Someone who's eyes I cannot look into, who I cannot embrace?  There is only one answer.  God wills this for me at this time.  And He has made His will my will.

So how can I HONESTLY love God from the heart without free will?  It is God's spirit living in me, making His will my will.

Of course, some would say there is another explanation - maybe I'm just crazy  ::) :P ;D

Just some thoughts I've been meditating on.

Peace to you.

             Cindy
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 04:40:28 PM by pylady »
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Ricky

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Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2008, 12:51:53 AM »

Hello Cindy,    Thankyou, you have the best answer so far to the question.  Dave in Tenn,  You as well have helped, Thankyou. I can now see how this form works with the people who can break down what Ray says and explain it in ways that stupid ex- truck drivers like me can understand a little better. There are only certain people here that I read everything they say, PHIL 3:10 you sir are one of them. Thankyou all     Ricky
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.

Robin

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2008, 06:56:14 AM »

I inherit the carnal mind through Adam.
My carnal mind cannot please God.
My carnal mind desires to sin.
I can only choose from my desires and only God can change my desires.
The circumstances of my life cause the way I desire to sin. Ray says that in the right circumstance we would all be child molesters. If our circumstances are different we may desire to lie instead or drink or use drugs or be sexually immoral or self righteous etc..
The truth shows me that I am the beast.
God's discipline and chastening cause me to repent and I learn righteousness.
God's love and forgiveness when I can't even look at myself due to my sin causes me to desire to love him and obey his will.

He causes me to put off the old man with his deeds and put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created me.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.

The process continues until I desire to love the LORD my God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my strength and love my neighbor as myself.

He must increase, but I must decrease.

It is all caused by God.





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tebza4jesus

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Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2008, 05:04:33 AM »

Legoman, thank you.

Just last night, I had my doubts. My doubts, I have found, are not found in the teachings themselves, but rather on the effect they have on me. What I mean is that before I knew these TRUTH (NO free-will, no hell, etc),I WORKED hard to ensure my salvation, maybe as a result of being afraid to go to hell. I prayed more, read the Bible more, and went to "church" almost daily.

But now that I understand (I hope I do understand), it seems to me that everything is meaningless. There's no pressure in me to do anything, be it to pray, or study the bible or fellowship. All this simply because it feels to me that, why should I do any of these, if already God knows how am I going to end. For example,

1. Why should I read the Bible if for me to understand it, I will need spiritual ears, but I cannot get spiritual ears of my own working but they can only be given to me by God. I cannot deserve to receive these ears but its a gift from God.
2. We are saved by grace through faith, and this faith is a gift. So what role do I have in my salvation? I might as well just sit and say, "May God save me when and how He wants to"!

When I look at my life right now, I wonder if I am not lost. It seems to me I was a better (depending on what better means) person before I knew these TRUTHS. And please note, I do acknowledge that they are TRUTH because when I read them and meditate upon them, they make perfect sense and are in line with what the Scriptures say and they are also in line with God's nature. I just don't understand the effect on me.

So yes I do have my doubts, and I cry to the LORD saying, "LORD you know my heart. If I am wrong, please correct me in love, and teach me to walk on your ways, for you know that I love you and have been seeking after you for years. Please help."

Will the doubts, ever end? I don't know, but God knows each man's heart. I hope that will count for something.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2008, 11:57:05 AM »


Hi tebza4jesus,

Gal 2:16  knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Quote
I WORKED hard to ensure my salvation, maybe as a result of being afraid to go to hell. I prayed more, read the Bible more, and went to "church" almost daily.


These were your "works of the law," that before you knew the truth you were depending on for your salvation.  That was the physical that must come first.

1Co 15:46  But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.

Quote
1. Why should I read the Bible if for me to understand it, I will need spiritual ears, but I cannot get spiritual ears of my own working but they can only be given to me by God. I cannot deserve to receive these ears but its a gift from God.
2. We are saved by grace through faith, and this faith is a gift. So what role do I have in my salvation? I might as well just sit and say, "May God save me when and how He wants to"!

When I look at my life right now, I wonder if I am not lost.

What you are receiving now is most certainly a gift, it is the "spiritual."  It may seem so different at first, having the Holy Spirit working in us, that we may feel kind of lost.  But now is when you can really start to learn the truth, because before you were blind and now your eyes are opened. 

It's like if you could not read because your eyes were bad and someone gave you glasses, so you could read.   Hopefully you wouldn't cast them aside, but use them.  What you could now learn by reading would open up a whole new world to you, right.  So now you can study the Scriptures with the 'new' open eyes that you have.

2Ti 2:15  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You can gain all the understanding and knowledge hidden in the Scriptures, only made available to us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Col 2:2  That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:3  In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

But even though it is a gift we actually do have to do something.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v. 13  for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

So we are doing the studying and praying, but now it is Christ in us that gives us the spiritual understanding that we can gain LIFE.

Eph 3:14-21  For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height-- to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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firefly77

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Re: Does anyone have doubts?
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2008, 11:58:47 AM »

Just joined the forum… Wanted to respond many times before, but this topic was the “cause” for me to finally “drag” me to do it.
The only thing I can look at in my own life is my own experiences. There are too many examples in my life to look back on confirming God is in absolute control.
Since the last 3 to 4 years,  I have become much more aware than ever that “free will” does not exist. In many ways it comforts me because whatever people I am in contact with in my life are there because God wills them to be part of it. Most of the time, if they rub me the wrong way, God uses them to teach me about His ways and how He is. When I used to harbor unforgiveness in my heart toward a person, even if it was just for a day, I was in all reality “murmuring” against God who wanted to teach me about patience, forbearance, long-suffering, kindness, forgiveness, etc. Now I am learning to forgive and let go immediately because God is really working behind the scenes:
 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philip. 2:13).
Don’t get me wrong, I still fail, miserably at times, but when I stop and think that God is in charge and in control, I immediately relax, calm down, and forgive.
It’s been an interesting journey and discovery. One of the blessings of “salvation for all” is that I don’t have to agonize over the fact anymore if I will get to see my loved ones again some day. All my relatives live in Germany; I immigrated to this country in 1976… The burden of my “unsaved” family going to “Hell” was more than I could bear. This truth is one of those “THANK YOU, GOD!” experiences that have made me a much happier and content person without the ever present “guilt” hanging over me that I am somehow “responsible” for them.
Nice to be a part of this forum now… One of these days I will write about my journey in seeking and finding the truth a little more in detail.
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