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Author Topic: Suffering and identifying.  (Read 2096 times)

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Amrhrasach

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Suffering and identifying.
« on: September 21, 2008, 08:41:45 PM »

God has blessed Ray with an artistic gift in order to sketch his points and make them clear.  For example, I get a special kick out of Ray’s little catch phrases like, “say, did you notice?”….or, “we shall see”…or “what saith the scriptures?”.   

Today God, through Ray, cracked open a window long shut.

From, LOF Part IX

Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE."

>>The ‘heart’ is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is.    Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.

In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!

God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."

And:  from, LOF Part X

"For it became [was fitting for…] Him [Jesus], for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT through suffering" (Heb. 2:10).

And this:

"Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9).

Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!!  Humans cannot be spiritually perfected instantaneously, or by magic. Even the Son of God was required to be perfected [made spiritually mature] through "suffering."  This requires time and circumstances--God, therefore, creates time and circumstances.”

My point is this.

For many years I’ve wanted to change my innermost being.  To leave behind certain undesirable traits that I found, well, undesirable.  But I could never manage it.  I would do good deeds, be nice, and sometimes even fend off a sin or two...... when my emotional base would allow.  But for the most part everything usually returned to their habitual little comfortable spot, and I would be the same as before, never changing for the better.   And, I’ve wondered often how it is that if God doesn’t sin, and Jesus doesn’t sin, how can they identify and understand these sufferings and weaknesses?   

It's a lonely feeling and a mountain of challenge.

That bit above from Ray’s LOF series, as I read it once again this morning, simply jumped off the page and made me realize: 

God has INTENDED IT TO BE, that “our” heaven will NEVER be or match God’s heaven, no matter how hard we may try.  We are not in charge of changing even one (1) undesirable thing, God is.   Any change made by our-selves is illusive, delusional, and will be only temporary because the purpose for the sufferings he set forth is not complete.  But when it is complete, we can rejoice that the old has gone away and the new is truly “at home”.  What a wonderful thing.

Jesus was made subject to “suffering” in order to be able to identify with us and our weaknesses and sufferings.  And I don't think anyone would dispute how he suffered.   And there's ALWAYS a perfect reason.    Just as we learn obedience, slowly, Jesus understands because he’s been there.  Just as we are “being made” to perfection, Jesus understands and is the author of that perfection, and his timing is perfect.

He surely does understand every thing we suffer, because he suffered also, even while sinless.   

But with our “microwave mindset” we want to rush matters and get them “over and done with”.    But he says, in other words, “let’s do it my way with-time and circumstances-and I’ll help you get there”.

We really don’t have control.     And it’s a good thing we don’t. 

Sorry for such a wall of words. 

Can anyone identify with this?


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Stevernator

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Re: Suffering and identifying.
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2008, 09:00:42 PM »

Wow I definately identify with that. Whenever I think, "Well it seems I have made some progress or I am overcoming sin.", I stumble. I hope that I learn to obey and do it God's way rather than relying on my "free will".
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EKnight

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Re: Suffering and identifying.
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2008, 09:12:27 PM »

This is a very interesting and uplifting post.  In a nutshell, we are to be imitators of Christ.  Whilst we may suffer, we are to "grin and bear it" with the knowledge that all is for a greater purpose.  Sometimes easier said than done, but the truth just the same. 

My most ongoing concern these days is watching my very carnal child, throw his life away and appears to be quite consumed with things of the flesh.  I see a very unhappy child whom I cannot help.  Can Christ identify with this?  I'm a mother and IMHO you absolutely must be a MOTHER to understand this heartache.  I don't think even the father  of a child can relate.  It's like watching your child suffer a slow death.  This, I think, Mary would totally get.  I can almost feel the pain she must have gone through.  That's not to diminish the sufferings of Christ, I only say that to make an analogy.

On the other hand, I guess I would rather suffer this than total loss of a child.

Eileen
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Suffering and identifying.
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2008, 09:49:10 PM »

"Can anyone identify with this?"

Yes.  It is my testimony in the church, in the world, and in the truth.  This is a great match for some of what we heard at the conference as well, so it's ringing hard in my ears right now.  Thanks.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

AK4

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Re: Suffering and identifying.
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2008, 10:34:13 AM »

Quote
God has INTENDED IT TO BE, that “our” heaven will NEVER be or match God’s heaven, no matter how hard we may try.  We are not in charge of changing even one (1) undesirable thing, God is.   Any change made by our-selves is illusive, delusional, and will be only temporary because the purpose for the sufferings he set forth is not complete.  But when it is complete, we can rejoice that the old has gone away and the new is truly “at home”.  What a wonderful thing.

Amen, great post
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OBrenda

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Re: Suffering and identifying.
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2008, 12:39:22 PM »

YES
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Sirach

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Re: Suffering and identifying.
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 12:51:36 PM »

I surely can identify...great post, thanks

Robin
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Kat

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Re: Suffering and identifying.
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 06:45:16 PM »


Hi Amrhrasach,

Quote
Just as we learn obedience, slowly, Jesus understands because he’s been there.  Just as we are “being made” to perfection, Jesus understands and is the author of that perfection, and his timing is perfect.

I do believe you have gotten to the "heart" of the matter  :)

Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
v. 25  Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
v. 26  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
v. 27  I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
v. 28  Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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tinknocker

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Re: Suffering and identifying.
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2008, 08:30:15 PM »

Hi Kat
Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
v. 25  Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
v. 26  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
v. 27  I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
v. 28  Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat



Great verses and I know it's a process but it's very hard not to want it today, this very minute because I don't care for the old me. I do like the changes He's already made and my wife loves the changes He's already made in me ;D ;)

Sometimes we have to look back to see how far He's brought us, to give us hope in where He's taking us!

Blessings
tinknocker
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