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Death on a Cross or Upright Pole.

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Samson:
Dear Brothers & Sisters,


                                  Just thought that this Topic might be interesting, to at least some of you. None of the following information is intended to sway or coerce any of you in one direction or another. Also this Topic isn't intended to involve whether or not the Cross or Pole is used for Idolatrous purposes, but rather a discussion on the instrument of Christ's death. I noticed in an Email answer that Ray provided to someone about this issue, that it's most likely an upright Pole. I read that in Off Topic Discussions regarding The Topic about Crosses, started by Ricky. As some of you know, I was a JW for twenty years and was taught that Christ died on a Upright Pole or Stake and that isn't a problem for me. So, with that said, let me clearly state, it doesn't matter to me whether or not it was a Cross or Upright Pole. This topic is only for the Stimulating affect of the Discussion.

                      Some Greek Words to consider: 1) Stauros(pronounced stow-ros)--- primarily a Stake or Post, as set upright. In Classical Greek, the Stauros meant merely an upright stake or pale. It was such a stake that the Greek Hero Prometheus was represented as tied to rocks. Only secondarily did it come to mean a Pole with a crossbeam attached.

                                                                  2) Xylon or Xulon(pronounced Zoo-lon)----- Timber, Tree or other wooden substance, like a club.  In the Revised Standard Version and the Older Versions of the King James at Gal. 3:13; Acts. 5:30; 1Peter. 2:24; Acts. 10:39 & Acts. 13:29. Of interest at Deuteronomy. 21:22, it states: " And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a Tree. ", Verse 23, " his body shall not remain all night upon the Tree, but you shall bury him him the same day, for a hanged man is accursed by God; you shall not defile your land which the LORD(Jehovah) your God gives you for an inheritance."  I can't seem to find the Hebrew Word for Tree or Timber for Deut. 21:22. It might be "ets", but not positive. Galatians. 3:13 & Acts. 5:30 is quoting Deuteronomy. 21:22. That seems to indicate, at the very least, the idea of a Crossbeam is a secondary understanding.

                                                                  3) Crux(Latin for Cross) primarily means a Tree or Frame or other Wooden instruments of execution according to The Latin Dictionary by Lewis and Short. So even the Crux has the basic meaning of Tree, not necessarily requiring a Crossbeam.

                     Of course there are Historical factors to be considered in all of this, I will only touch on some of the claims and leave the rest for commenting from Forum members.


                     According to Roman literary sources, those condemned to crucifixion never carried the complete cross, instead only the crossbar was carried, while the upright was set in a permanent place where it was used for subsequent executions. According to Josephus, wood was so scarce in Jerusalem during the First Century A.D.

                     John. 20:25 mentions THE NAILS that punctured Jesus' hands. There is a controversy as to, how could it be an upright Pole if there were Nails(plural) in the hands necessitating a Cross or if the Nails mentioned applies to more than one body part. I'll let you the reader comment on this aspect.

                    There is some Archaeological evidence in support of Jesus Death Instrument being a Cross, there are three points in my personal information at home. I decided not to include this information and let Forum Members make their comments and insights.

                     In conclusion, this is not intended for debating purposes, I have no desire for such and don't plan on engaging in any of that. Feel free to make your Posts, looking forward to hearing from you.


                                        Kind Regards, Samson

           P.S. I don't start too many threads, it's that putting on and taking off, glasses thing, it's monotonous and tiring;  ;D



             

Linny:
Hi Samson,
We have found this topic of interest as well. We read about the cross and how this symbol has been abused so much that we stopped wearing them or using them in our home.

Have you seen the picture of the one the Pope holds? It has an emaciated Jesus hanging on it. It is quite creepy.

My understanding is that it was not a cross but actually in an X shape. This was in some info that talked about what was used most in Crucifixion. This X shape would allow for the nails in His hands.

Lin

Beloved:
Interesting topic, upright or cross beam

Either way it was wood, Scripture was fulfilled and the "FirstFruit' was put back on the tree.

The whole stake would have weighed 300 pounds, the reference of Simon of Cyrene suggests that it was the cross beam or gibbet that was carried which would have weighed about 175 pounds. The fact that hyssop was used to put the sponge up implies that the upright was at least 7 feet high.   Luke and John both refers to the holes or nail marks.  The only cool part of mel gibson's movie The Pasion" was that sceen at His ressurection when the light shone through these holes. I can never watch this movie again.

The Persians and the Geeks used this form of punishment, the Roman being particularly aggressive (2 iron legs) , perfected it and extensively used it as a warning to any rebellion, the Spartacus rebellion and later 70 AD were major public demonstations were thousands were crucified.

beloved

OBrenda:
Never heard of the X cross before, but I have of the single pole.  I've heard the scientist say they nails could not have been placed in the actual hands like we have seen in the movies & paintings.  Possibly in the wrist, to be able to hold the weight.  I think this is pretty commonly known.  Good point about the bigger issue is what was done on the cross, than exactly what form the cross took.
It is just constant unraveling of a false reality we have trusted in.
Firstfruits back on the tree...I've never heard that one before. :)

Don't have any personal study knowledge to share, just a comment that it's amazing the cruelty we are capable of.

Interesting,
Brenda

Beloved:
This was just a reference to

(Joh 6:53)  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

contrasted with

(Gen 2:9)  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

and the choice of the means of death..crucifixition

(Gal 3:13)  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Contrast of literal vs spiritual

beloved

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