Born sinners?

[AK4]

I just had a convo with someone who was wondering why we are born sinners because of Adams sin and this is how i responded

Me----Mankind are not born sinners. What we inherited from Adam was death. Sin brought death. Adams sin brought death and because we all sin, we die. If we didnt we would live, i.e. Jesus--the only man who didnt sin, but He only died because He died for everyone elses sin. This is how everyone will be held accountable for their own sins, not Adams.  But look at the bright side, because of one Man who did not sin, who was given life, all will inherit from that Man life too.

I was right, right?

Anthony

[Richard D]

That's what I understood from Ray's papers. We were made spiritually weak but only inherited death through Adam and not sin. We sin on our own and are accountable to God for our sins.

Which makes perfect sense. How can God blame anyone for Adams sins but when Adam sinned and death came to him it was also past off to all after him. You know, like a genetic thing.

But God is responsible for all sin he also paid the price for all sin. So who can complain?

[AK4]

I remember when in Babylon this being parrotted that "you are born a sinner and its Adams fault".  Just another lie past on babylon

[Richard D]

I was also taught that we were born sinners too but discovered through Ray's teachings we were born spiritually weak but not sinners.  So I say we were born with a death sentence over our heads if you will but born innocent.

But because we were born spiritually weak we were sinning by age two probably except me I started right from the delivery room.
   

[Robin]

I seem to remember Ray saying we inherited the carnal mind from Adam. I think it's on the audio. The carnal mind is a sinning machine. The wages of sin is death and all sin.

[aqrinc]

Anthony,

That is how i understand it, speaking to someone who is a JW for maybe 50 years this very argument caused them to stop and look at the reason for their belief. This is a person very Dear to me so i have Prayed many times for God to move the veil from them. Yes we are sinning machines even now as we still live in this body of Death. Now that i understand that All (Everyone) will be saved i can Pray (EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS) without fear for Loved Ones in this Life.

TO GOD BE THE GLORY IN CHRIST JESUS: Amen.

George.

I just had a convo with someone who was wondering why we are born sinners because of Adams sin and this is how i responded

Me----Mankind are not born sinners. What we inherited from Adam was death. Sin brought death. Adams sin brought death and because we all sin, we die. If we didnt we would live, i.e. Jesus--the only man who didnt sin, but He only died because He died for everyone elses sin. This is how everyone will be held accountable for their own sins, not Adams.  But look at the bright side, because of one Man who did not sin, who was given life, all will inherit from that Man life too.

I was right, right?

Anthony

[musicman]

I seem to remember Ray saying we inherited the carnal mind from Adam. I think it's on the audio. The carnal mind is a sinning machine. The wages of sin is death and all sin.

No, Ray never said that.  That's what the church believes, though.  Actually, Adam was also created with a carnal mind.  Otherwise, he would never have sinned.

[Richard D]

M.G.

Even though we received a carnal mind at birth in itself is not a sin but rather what we do with it, but I think also for this cause, no one can boast. That's my take on it anyways.

[Robin]

This is what I'm referring to. I may be misunderstanding what Ray said.

There's the answer. Adam's personal sin no more pass on to us making US guilty of HIS sins anymore than Eve's sins passed on to her husband. We inherit our parent's (Adam and Eve) mortality and nature. We are not born with their SIN, but with their nature. We are born with the "natural" mind, the Adamic mind, which is called "carnal" in the Scriptures.  Notice: "Because the carnal [natural fleshly mind] is enmity against God: for IT is not subject to the law of God..." (Rom. 8:7). It is not "Adam's sin in us" that is enmity against God, but rather OUR OWN CARNAL MINDS. Notice what it is that came from the one man, Adam: "For since by man came DEATH...for as IN Adam all DIE..." (I Cor. 15:21 & 22).

We are all guilty and accountable for OUR OWN SINS, not the sins of Adam or anyone else.

[Kat]

Hi Anthony,

Here is an email concerning this.

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#Adam -------------------

As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together: 

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding: 

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you,

Ray

[Longhorn]

My Mom told me it was a Sin when she had me..... I think she was right.


Love in Christ

Longhorn

[Dave in Tenn]

I think I've been sorta doctrinally backsliding, so thanks for the fence on this, all.