Any true Churches

[JeffH]

If people gather together in a building they call a "church" and hold "services" and "worship" then they are deceived, period

Are the Bible studies that Ray holds in the building called his home as they worship God in seeking his truth deceptive then?

[Dennis Vogel]

If people gather together in a building they call a "church" and hold "services" and "worship" then they are deceived, period

Are the Bible studies that Ray holds in the building called his home as they worship God in seeking his truth deceptive then?

Ray doesn't call his home a church.

[JeffH]

I believe most churches teach you the milk of the word along with some corrupt doctrines.  In other words the they teach some truth and mix in a lot lies with it.

Are they teaching lies, if they believe them?

Satan is a liar and intentionally so. He deceives those whose eyes God has not chosen to open yet, as well as the elect at times.  Pastors, ministers, preachers, priests believe what they do, because it's God's will.  I'm certain that there are disingenuous, dishonest people knowingly fleecing deceived people who follow blasphemous doctrine, but do we forget that this is intentional?

Are all teachers Pharisees?  Babylon has a purpose.

Where is the compassion, mercy, grace, patience and forgiveness of Christ in this?

I say this out of love for all of you because you are God's creation:

       Sometimes when I come here, I feel like I'm at a country club and the rest of humanity is comprised of waiters and busboys.


Jeff

[JeffH]

Ray doesn't call his home a church.

Semantics.  You're missing the point.

[Kat]

Here is an excerpt from the article no. 6 in the LOF, 'THE DEPTH OF SATAN AND THE CHURCH OF GOD.  Also there are a couple of emails.

http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html --------------------------

THE CHURCH OF GOD IN PRIVATE HOUSES

There was a transition period where the disciples still went up to the temple, but God's intimate dealings would now be found in more humble surroundings. When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the first Saints of Jesus, it was not in a synagogue, but in a house:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all THE HOUSE where they were sitting" (Acts 2:1-2).

Church services were held in houses:

"Likewise greet the church that is in their house" (Rom. 16:5).

"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house" (I Cor. 16:19).

"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house� (Col., 4:15).

"Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, and to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in your house" (Philemon 1-2).

When we come to the famous Jerusalem Conference in the fifteenth chapter of Acts, we read that Paul and Barnabas were "...being brought on their way by the CHURCH..." (Acts 15:3). This is the Church of Jesus Christ, not the church of the synagogue system. Notice that in this conference their determination was to not force the Law of Moses on new Gentile converts:

"Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with THE WHOLE CHURCH..." (Acts 15:22).

The High Priests did not attend this conference. This was the first 'ecumenical counsel,' if you will, of the Church of Jesus Christ, consisting of only those who believed, who formulated policy which would be binding on the whole church.

The Jews had "synagogues"—church buildings. The newly converted Christians came out of those synagogue church buildings and their doctrines, and met in homes. Why? Mostly because Christ was not taught or tolerated in these synagogues. In order to worship and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, it became necessary to "come out of her"—the synagogue system of religion.

Jesus Christ, the teachings of Jesus Christ, and the followers of Jesus Christ were hated and despised by most leaders of most synagogues. Do we think that anything has changed regarding this in today's churches? If Jesus Christ returned to virtually any Christian church in the world today, unrecognized in a business suit, and began teaching His own Gospel, the leaders of the churches would throw Him out. And I say this without the least hesitation as to what the implications of my statement are.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6056.0.html -----------

I assembly with Believers of like mind as often as possible. This is not done in a "church building," however. Usually in private homes and Bible Conferences.  God does not dwell in temples, cathedrals, and church buildings:
     

    Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

    Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

    Well where DOES God dwell if not in church buildings?

    1Co 3:16 Know ye not that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE of God, and that the Spirit of God DWELLS IN Y-O-U"

    God be with you,
    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1215.0.html -------

    Not to sound cute, Emmanuel, but I don't have a church. I am a member of GOD'S CHURCH, and it is a spiritual organism, not a physical building with man-made creeds.

    Paul stopped baptizing altogether after he learned that no physical ritual will make anyone spiritual. We are baptized in spirit, not water; we are circumcised in spirit, not in the flesh; we partake of Christ's body not in the physical with bread, but in the spirit, etc.

    Matt. 28:19--"...baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit....:" IS NOT SCRIPTURE. That part of a verse was inserted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles.

    God be with you,
    Ray

[mharrell08]

Are they teaching lies, if they believe them?

Satan is a liar and intentionally so. He deceives those whose eyes God has not chosen to open yet, as well as the elect at times.  Pastors, ministers, preachers, priests believe what they do, because it's God's will.  I'm certain that there are disingenuous, dishonest people knowingly fleecing deceived people who follow blasphemous doctrine, but do we forget that this is intentional?

Are all teachers Pharisees?  Babylon has a purpose.

Where is the compassion, mercy, grace, patience and forgiveness of Christ in this?

I say this out of love for all of you because you are God's creation:

       Sometimes when I come here, I feel like I'm at a country club and the rest of humanity is comprised of waiters and busboys.

Jeff

Hello Jeff,

1. Yes, they are teaching lies even if they believe them. A lie is still a lie. Whether the Lord opens one's eyes to the truth or not, He does not 'make' anyone sin or believe these heretical fables. Their carnal nature does that all by themselves. Though mankind is not responsible for sin, we are still nonetheless held accountable for our sins, which we do voluntarily.

2. We never forget that this is God's intention as 'All is of God' [Rom 11:36]. But Paul still admonishes us to 'abhor [Gk. dislike, have a horror of] that which is evil' Rom 12:9.

3. All that teach the doctrines of man as though of God are Pharisees, yes.

4. All the spiritual fruit of Christ has not gone anywhere. When we state how the 'church' is of Satan, it's not the people so much, just their teachings.

5. Sorry you feel that this is some kind of spiritual country-club. For this I have no answer as I do not see the forum in that way. If everyone on every post was talking about they were of the elect or some other statement to puff themselves up, then I could agree. But I really never see those kinds of statements.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Dennis Vogel]

I believe most churches teach you the milk of the word along with some corrupt doctrines.  In other words the they teach some truth and mix in a lot lies with it.

Are they teaching lies, if they believe them?

Satan is a liar and intentionally so. He deceives those whose eyes God has not chosen to open yet, as well as the elect at times.  Pastors, ministers, preachers, priests believe what they do, because it's God's will.  I'm certain that there are disingenuous, dishonest people knowingly fleecing deceived people who follow blasphemous doctrine, but do we forget that this is intentional?

Are all teachers Pharisees?  Babylon has a purpose.

Where is the compassion, mercy, grace, patience and forgiveness of Christ in this?

I say this out of love for all of you because you are God's creation:

       Sometimes when I come here, I feel like I'm at a country club and the rest of humanity is comprised of waiters and busboys.


Jeff

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

We should always remember that we did not get here because of anything we did.

The only difference between them and us is God has chosen us. You can read the reasons why he called us above.

Dennis

[Dennis Vogel]

Sometimes when I come here, I feel like I'm at a country club and the rest of humanity is comprised of waiters and busboys.

Let me add:

It is a club of sorts, only you have it backwards. We are the waiters and busboys.

Everyone is born blind to the truth. You can take things you've learned here to almost any preacher (we never know if our words will change someone according to God's plan) and show them a simple truth and they will totally reject it.

It is a minor miracle that we see the truth (God simply removes the scales from our eyes), but it's a bigger miracle when the church is presented with the truth in a simple, obvious way, and they cannot see it.

I think I know what you are getting at Jeff: Many of these men are decent, caring individuals and do not deserve our scorn. You try and show them the simple truth and you will expierence their scorn. Same with your friends and family:

Mat 10:35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

There but for the grace of God go I.

Dennis

[KristaD]

Ray doesn't call his home a church.

Semantics.  You're missing the point.

The whole point is that Ray knows the definition of "church", those who erect a building and call it a church and deem that building a holy place where one must go to find God are deceived.

[Beloved]

great visual metaphor Dennis.

The world thinks it is at a banquet, they are enjoying themselves for the most part but some folks are choking on their food. Some people have even been given very bads meals.

Those who have had their eyes and ears opened....are now waiters and busboys....they know the Chef and they are learning what is really good to eat..... but when they even try to make suggestions .......they are scorned and rediculed and belittled by their own family groups. 

beloved

[Phil3:10]

To All,
Richard D, Dennis and Kat you have captured my feelings about the institutional church perfectly. My wife and I attended the funeral of a good man whom I came to know in the church I last attended nearly 3 years ago. It is always the same when I run into the members, the ladies hug me and the men shake my hand and all are praying that I will come back. I just answer that I would not trade my relationship with CHRIST now for anything in the past. Their next question is "Where are you going to church?"  When I reply that I am the church and I do not choose to attend any specific service they are stunned and I generally do not get anymore questions. Occasionally, some will ask further and I will always mention Bible-Truths and this forum as my trusted teacher.
The need to belong, to have a doctrine, to have leaders, to be like-minded, and to desire fellowship are normal and natural human desires. This is Satan's best device in deceiving most co-called Christians throughout known history.
It takes GOD'S direct calling to open our eyes to the deceit, lies and false lures of the institutional church system. I think nearly all of us can attest that it was the need to search out GOD'S real truths that led us out of the Babylonian System. Only GOD can call and only GOD can reveal HIS perfect truths. GOD chooses when, how, how much, and to whom HE reveals HIS truths.
Yes, the Babylonian Church System does have a purpose. I thank GOD that HE opened many doors for my growth from spiritual milk to spiritual solid food through this system. My constant prayer is that HE will open the minds of many more to HIS wonderful truths soon. However, I am fully convinced that all is of GOD and that HIS plan is perfect. 
Phil3:10

[Dennis Vogel]

great visual metaphor Dennis.

The world thinks it is at a banquet, they are enjoying themselves for the most part but some folks are choking on their food. Some people have even been given very bads meals.

Those who have had their eyes and ears opened....are now waiters and busboys....they know the Chef and they are learning what is really good to eat..... but when they even try to make suggestions .......they are scorned and rediculed and belittled by their own family groups. 

beloved

Thanks, but that's not quite what I had in mind Dr. Carol.

My point is we should be servants now as we will be servants in the next life.

This whole exercise is about becoming humble and meek (among other things).

We should not consider ourselves better in any way, because we are not.

Dennis

[Beloved]

 

I get it I just did not express it well...the waiter and the busboy are only passing information from the Chef that He has showed them, they no absolutely nothing of cooking or food or needs.

They go to the table in life and present from the Chef the things the chef thinks are needed and the waiter and the busboys pick up the broken dishes and uneaten food.

Like the feeding of the 5000 where they pick up the broken pieces of food the pieces into twelve baskets .... all of these servants will be broken ...

(Luk 22:27)  For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Thanks for the clarification Dennis

beloved

[Douglas Wayne Thomas]

      Dennis I like your reply. Many people equate meek with being weak and being humble as being like a doormat. They are not like that at all.

      Meekness is the ability given by the Holy Spirit to stop demanding my own way. It is being set free from the tyranny of always wanting what I want, and right now. It is knowing that God is taking care of me and being deeply contented and serene about what He is doing.

      Look at the example Jesus set for us. He was humble and meek and He had all the authority He ever needed. Remember when He was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane? In the confusion and passion of the moment, one of Jesus' disciples took a sword and cut off the ear of one of the arresting soldiers.

     In an act of mercy, and an incredible display of self-control and meekness, Jesus healed the soldier, then reprimanded His disciple. Jesus knew that it wasn't time to fight back or insist on His own way. He simply humbled Himself and submitted to the authorities...willingly giving Himself up as a sacrifice on the cross.

      The amazing thing is that Jesus could have resisted. He had the power to call the angels down for a dramatic rescue. He didn't submit because He was weak. On the contrary, He was intentionally meek. Meekness is really humble strength under control.

      Humility is freedom from pride and arrogance. It's having a modest estimation of your own worth. You don't look down on yourself, but neither are you full of yourself. Humility is not thinking badly of yourself; it's just not having yourself on your mind all the time. It's having an awareness of your own defects. When we realize that we all have faults, we treat others much better. Humility means to be meek, not weak.

I agree that there a myriad amount of other reasons why we have to change if we strive to become the chosen and faithful, being meek and humble are a good start though. Just my random thoughts.

Seeking to do God's will always,

Douglas

[Ninny]

Douglas, I love that picture of Jesus. Years ago I heard some pastor on the radio talking about meekness he said "don't mistake Jesus' meekness for weakness, remember that meekness is power under control." I have never forgotten that! How awesome it would be if we could see more meekness in the world. So many bullies-so little meekness!
Kathy

[frecklegirl417]

Douglas, I love that picture of Jesus. Years ago I heard some pastor on the radio talking about meekness he said "don't mistake Jesus' meekness for weakness, remember that meekness is power under control." I have never forgotten that! How awesome it would be if we could see more meekness in the world. So many bullies-so little meekness!
Kathy

I double your sentiment, Kathy. You and Douglas made my picture of Jesus brighter and better. I always believed that Jesus was the church and still do. I think just coming here brings me closer to Him and to our Heavenly Father. Just my thoughts.

                                                       A young Sister in Christ,
                                                              Pam

[JeffH]

It is a club of sorts, only you have it backwards. We are the waiters and busboys.

This is a good place.  There are good people here and there's love flowing throughout. 

This isn't Ray's website as some have suggested, it's God's website.  It's about God, for God and of God.  It's purpose is to glorify our Creator.  It's for that express purpose that we even exist.

Dennis, you're right.  There are waiters and busboys here.  Most of the time. 

What I'm talking about is the way we refer to the wandering souls, the lost church. It burns a hole in my heart, when I see it.  We mock them and as it reads - especially to those visiting for the first time - they've been segregated by this forum.  Assigned to some lower-class spiritual level, by souls that rightfully can go no further than to lay prostrate in front of God asking for forgiveness for our own sin.  Those lost people are simply reacting to the circumstances that our Lord has created for HIS own purpose.  Those people are subject to God in exactly the same way everyone here is.

This is not a club and this forum is not elite.  Every single one of us are worms, yet through grace we've somehow been blessed with a better understanding of the deeper things of God.  What credit is that to us?  What have we ever done to deserve something that glorious?  Just how grateful are we?  Better yet - how prideful are we?  He can take away just as easily as He gives.

We're also mirrors and sometimes what's reflected here smacks of the world, just like any church on the corner.  That's ok, because it's in our nature, but to ignore it is to stagnate.  We are imperfect, but becoming...

What we have here is a gift.  If not for God's benevolence and Ray's blessed obedience, we would still be with the others worshipping in vain, oblivious to the Truth.

Are the things we post, glorifying God?  Do they reflect the compassion that God shows us through grace?  Grace - the most awesome concept mankind could ever hope to understand.  Do we reflect that grace outside this forum?  If we aren't reflecting it in the forum, then the answer to that seems plain.

Everyone is born blind to the truth. You can take things you've learned here to almost any preacher (we never know if our words will change someone according to God's plan) and show them a simple truth and they will totally reject it.

Why are "we" so focused on what's going on in the Christian pulpits around the world?  That's God's business.  Everything on the bt.com website from the top down to the LOF series could be removed and it wouldn't change a single thing.  John Hagee, James Kennedy, Jimmy Swaggart, Jack Van Impe and even Billy Graham simply cannot and will not be changed by the blessing God has given to us in the Truth that overflows here.  There's no point in talking to those people because they can't hear - it's impossible for them to hear the message here and it's fruitless to badger them.  Especially because that's how God wants it.

It is a minor miracle that we see the truth[ (God simply removes the scales from our eyes), but it's a bigger miracle when the church is presented with the truth in a simple, obvious way, and they cannot see it.  I think I know what you are getting at Jeff: Many of these men are decent, caring individuals and do not deserve our scorn. You try and show them the simple truth and you will experience their scorn. Same with your friends and family:

Those men are not decent, caring individuals.  Neither am I.  Those men are passing through time, exactly as God desires them to, doing what God has given them to do.  I don't care what those people believe, it's not my job to know that.  All I care about is the Truth. 

I've been doing this a long time.  I know the scorn and I cherish every bit of it.  It means that God is working in me.

Ray has graciously imparted knowledge to us.  What does knowledge bear, if not love?

1 Corinthians 13 (Darby)

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And if I shall dole out all my goods in food, and if I deliver up my body that I may be burned, but have not love, I profit nothing.
4 Love has long patience, is kind; love is not emulous [of others]; love is not insolent and rash, is not puffed up,
5 does not behave in an unseemly manner, does not seek what is its own, is not quickly provoked, does not impute evil,
6 does not rejoice at iniquity but rejoices with the truth,
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall be done away; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part:
10 but when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child; when I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child.
12 For we see now through a dim window obscurely, but then face to face; now I know partially, but then I shall know according as I also have been known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love; these three things; and the greater of these [is] love.


My only reason for saying these things is because that's what's on my heart.

Jeff

P.S. to Marques

Yes, they are teaching lies even if they believe them. A lie is still a lie. Whether the Lord opens ones eyes to the truth or not, He does not 'make' anyone sin or believe these heretical fables.

Marques,

Why is lying wrong?  The reason we're commanded not to lie, is because it represents deceit and deceit requires premeditation - even if it's only for a second.  Once the thought enters your mind, the deceit is on your heart.  Right there, whether you carry through with the physical act or not, you're condemned.  How many times throughout a day, does a deceitful thought enter your mind that you never act on?  Regardless, it's sin.  I believe that the majority of people in church , including their leaders are intentionally deceived and they preach and learn the only thing they know.  God is responsible for creating Satan in order to deceive people.

Satan doesn't know our thoughts, but he can certainly place them there.  You and I aren't exempt.

There are the Jim Baker's, Benny Hinn's and Joyce Myers' out there, but they would be crooks whether they were in the ministry or not.  And frankly, somewhere inside us we have the potential to be just like them.

Lying does not equal lack of knowledge. 

If your wife asks you if she looks pretty in that lime green, pink and orange dress and you know it's hideous, is it a sin to say "Honey, you look beautiful in everything"?

The sin in lying is to profit from deceit.  Would you lie to a psychopath on the verge of killing your son, if you knew it would save his life?  I wouldn't think twice.


Thank you God for your abundant grace and mercy.

[Dave in Tenn]

It's the cornerstone of BT and Ray's approach to teaching the Gospel to expose those who contradict and teach right doctrine.  It's a solid scriptural approach.  It doesn't matter whether the ones teaching what contradicts are willfully lying or not.  It is the teachings themselves that stand in contradiction to the Truth.

Sometimes more than others, the person him/herself embodies contradiction to right Doctrine, and Ray is on strong scriptural gound to call them out by name.  I don't know whether Hagee or Kennedy ever read these letters, but I know that people steeped in thier teaching have.  It takes just a little wisdom to see that is the audience Ray is trying to reach, not these preachers (and others like them) themselves. 

The mature here, and certainly Ray, understand that we are no better than anybody.  The less mature need the reminders that you, Kat and Dennis have provided.  There but for the Grace of God go us.  There by the will of God go them.

What Ray does well, we may do poorly at times.  God help us.       

[firefly77]

This is one of the most interesting discussions I have read so far. I just want to thank all of you for your wisdom and insight. It is sort of strange; I was "called" through the Jimmy Swaggart ministry about 25 years ago. I have attended the garden variety of churches... Free Methodist, Assembly of God, Foursquare, Non-denominational, Lutheran, Catholic, watched TBN and on and on. It's strange or maybe not, but I never felt at "home" in any church or considered myself a part of them. I always thought I was different/my walk with God was different somehow; I was never able to play "church" like everybody else seemed to do and still like myself.

Today I attended a small church in Spokane who in all actuality believes that Jesus will save all. Except for this particular believe and that "tithing" is unscriptural as well, everything else reminded me of a regular church service. I was miserable and could not wait to drive back home and come to the BT forum here. I so very much enjoy being part of a body of believers here. All of you seem to experience the same struggles I have in my walk with God, the same questions, sometimes doubts, the struggle to die to self daily, and that this journey is not a cake walk, but it is difficult. Getting saved is hard; it's the hardest thing I ever had/have to do, just like Ray said. I am so thrilled that I have finally joined this forum; I was "lurking" around in the background for a long time. I just thank God that He brought me here 4 years ago after I asked Him to really show me the Truth.

Grace and Peace to you,
Angie

[WhoAmI]

Anyone have a good John Hagee joke?