> General Discussions
How Long Has Man Been On Earth
Douglas Wayne Thomas:
My ancestors were the Indian tribe known as the Heckowwee.
They used to wonder around alot without a name for the tribe. Then one day the chief climbed up a hill and put his hand over his eyes, like a military salute, and started yelling Where the Heckowwee?
ScarletWren:
hahahah, Doug, very funny on your hekowee.
I side with the one who says that we are not in the seventh "day" from the standpoint of man's creation. If you look very closely at the 'two accounts' of creation you can see vast differences and it could be that the first account is prophetical and the second is what was taking place and is still taking place. We are still not in the image of God for Adam and Jesus were contrasted. It's late right now and I can't remember, but somewhere in the gospels, Jesus mentioned that God was working and so was he. Yet, God is outside of time, so since He can see the finished work, and from His vantage point, it is finished, in that sense His work is finished, but to us, in the thrall of time, I believe we're still in the sixth day. Finding rest in HIm, to me, isn't that there's no labor, it's peace in the midst of labor and strife.
Is there a reason we can't disagree on some points? Do we have to believe that 100% of what Ray says is right? I don't know if there's any one person on the web that I agree 100% with, but I have many favorite writers and can glean some good and precious gems from each of them. Some believe in the trinity (I pretty much have been swayed to Ray's view on that); some believe that we are still conscious after death (I also tend to think Ray's view on that makes more sense, after believing the other way most of my life). But I was still struggling with some issues awhile ago and I read a very good article (can't remember where) that said it isn't imperative to know everything in full right now, even Paul said we see through a glass dimly now; and God still loves us if we get something wrong, and one day we will know fully. So I try to remember that when I struggle with something that seems too difficult for my teeny brain to get a grip on.
Just my half penny's worth.
Trish in AZ
hillsbororiver:
Hi Folks,
This topic need not spiral downhill because we all do not understand/agree/concur or however we might phrase it. My take (right or wrong or somewhere in between) is that in the very beginning when that atom, point, grain or seed was the entire universe that upon expansion (Big Bang) would ultimately contain everything (and everyone) that would ever exist. All the information and energy required to accomplish this was predesigned into this tiny "seed."
Think about the point of conception for a human being, all the information that (physically) makes us what we are and how we appear are within those 2 cells which ultimately become the 35 trillion cells which make up a human body, that in itself is a mind blowing thing to contemplate.
Since the universe is still expanding and changing and creatures are still being conceived and born I can understand the reasoning behind the thought that creation (the 6th day) is still in effect, on the other hand like a row of dominoes once the dominoes are set in place it only takes the initial push to set all the motion in action, the pattern in which the dominoes finally lay out has been predetermined before the first one even falls no further action is required by the initiator.
My suggestion is we wait until Kat (bless her heart) provides the transcripts before we take this any further, at least we will have an outline or point of reference to consult in our discussion.
Please keep in mind the purpose of the Forum. ;)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
Peace,
Joe
mharrell08:
Hello All:
I know this topic was just locked and then unlocked, and I am not trying to start an argument, but I just had something pop in my head that I gotta post before I lose it. Please grab your Bibles as I am in a hurry and won't post all the scriptures right now.
Remember how Ray showed us to count back the days of creation? 'And God said...' which was the beginning of the day. But also, do you notice that upon completion, the Word states 'the evening and the morning were the x day'? We have a completion of the 6th day [last chapter in Gen 1]
But here's this, could those of unbelief be in the evening [darkness] while those who come into a knowledge of the truth (entering His rest) be in the morning [light; truth; righteousness] of the 7th day?
Also, remember Adam was formed, not made, after the 6th day as there was no one to til the ground. Don't know where this last statement goes, but just decided to throw it in.
Mods, if this is too much speculation, please lock. I don't mean to cause a disruption in the forum. This just felt like one of those 'Eureka!' moments that I wanted to share.
Thanks,
Marques
Douglas Wayne Thomas:
The following is part of an article by Dr. Schroeder formerly of M.I.T.:
15 billion or six days?
Today, we look back in time. We see 15 billion years. Looking forward from when the universe is very small -- billions of times smaller -- the Torah says six days. They both may be correct.
What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning, relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. Any one of a dozen physics text books all bring the same number. The general relationship between time near the beginning when stable matter formed from the light (the energy, the electromagnetic radiation) of the creation) and time today is a million million, that is a trillion fold extension.
That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. It is a unit-less ratio. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe. In astronomy, the term is "red shift." Red shift in observed astronomical data is standard.
The Torah doesn't say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we're sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah's perspective is from the beginning looking forward.
Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3300 years ago.
The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step.
Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.
(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)
The calculations come out to be as follows:
The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.
The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.
The third 24 hour day also included half of the previous day, 2 billion years.
The fourth 24 hour day -- one billion years.
The fifth 24 hour day -- one-half billion years.
The sixth 24 hour day -- one-quarter billion years.
When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?
But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.
http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Age_of_the_Universe.asp
http://
The article is interesting reading, this man, I believe, is sincere in trying to straighten out the Genesis story, I can not wait to see the videos from Ray's last conference. It kind of sounds like Ray and Dr. Schroeder are headed in the same general direction.
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