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Author Topic: Romans 5  (Read 3122 times)

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galatians22067

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Romans 5
« on: October 01, 2008, 07:32:54 PM »

Hi Can anyone help me with Romans 5:12-21.


I see what Ray is teaching about Adama carnal sinful nature long before his transgression but now Romans 5:12-21 really confuses me.


Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Any help is greatly appreciated,

Matt
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2008, 08:33:04 PM »


Hi Matt,

I found this email concerning chapter 5, hope it helps.

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ---------

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together: 

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding: 

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you,

Ray

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Heidi

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2008, 12:46:00 AM »

Thank you Kat for replying to this post, it gave me clarity as well.

I love this forum and being part of it.  I learn something new every day by the grace of God.  I can honestly say that I have become an forum-addict and if I miss out just one day it feels like I am incomplete or something.  It is a gift of God to be part of this family and all good gifts come from above.

Love
Heidi
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2008, 01:42:27 AM »

Heidi,

From a fellow forum prowler, you are so right on. The questions asked and many answers given
are priceless in getting a wider and sometimes deeper understanding of how God Works in us and
how different lessons are learned from the same Scripture all the time. This is my place of refuge
in the physical world; it is also where i get Spiritual Food.

Romans 12:3:
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Geo.
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Heidi

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2008, 03:37:42 AM »

The questions asked and many answers given are priceless in getting a wider and sometimes deeper understanding of how God Works in us and how different lessons are learned from the same Scripture all the time. This is my place of refuge in the physical world; it is also where i get Spiritual Food.

Arc....I ditto the above.  Once cannot help but to also start getting familiar with the scriptures because of the repetitiveness it is being fed to us.  It is awesome!!!!
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2008, 11:30:12 AM »


Hi Heidi and Geo,

I couldn't agree more we all you have said  :)
I gain so much from my participation here in searching BT and the Scripture for answers and all that is shared among us.  I think we are drawn here by His Spirit in us desiring to be with others with His Spirit.  It is a wonderful thing.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2008, 12:22:52 PM »

I go to sleep late at night and wake up early daily to check what is the last
communication from a Sister or Brother on the forum. The Admonition to:
(Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness, and All these things
will be added onto you) has grabbed me and has a firm hold.

Kat, thanks for always being there with a ready Scripture and very caring and Loving Counsel for us.

Geo.


Hi Heidi and Geo,

I couldn't agree more we all you have said  :)
I gain so much from my participation here in searching BT and the Scripture for answers and all that is shared among us.  I think we are drawn here by His Spirit in us desiring to be with others with His Spirit.  It is a wonderful thing.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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OBrenda

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2008, 04:32:37 PM »

I was just being teased that I might need a 12 step program for my addiction to the forum. ;)
Step 1. I do feel powerless over it...(no-Free-Will)
However my Husband is quite content ruling over the remote control without me rolling my eyes. ::)
I feel I've changed & grown & stretched & stumbled & stood back up & ready for more...

Much Thanks To Everyone...
Brenda
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2008, 05:00:41 PM »


Hi Brenda,

Quote
I feel I've changed & grown & stretched & stumbled & stood back up & ready for more...

me too, we're all in this together  :)

Kathy
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Brett

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2008, 01:39:46 AM »

Hello,

Hope you will bear with me. I have seen the posts alike of this post. I tried to avoid for long about 2 years. I need to get out of my chest.  I'm sorry but I had to. It's just the way I see the scriptures truth. Just very clear for me. If you disagree, that is okay with me. Hope you understand.


Sin” in scriptures has two different grammars in Hebrew and Greek. One is a verb (that is, an action) and one is a noun (that is, a thing, not an action)

G264
hamartanō
Thayer’s Part of Speech: VERB. And is according to Morphological Analysis Codes

G266
hamartia
Thayer’s Part of Speech: NOUN feminine. And is according to Morphological Analysis Codes



World” can be mankind

G2889
kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens.
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the INHABITANTS of the earth, MEN, the HUMAN family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8 ) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort



In NT:

John 3:16 
For God so loved the WORLD [G2889 kosmos, inhabitant-all men], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [G166 aionios, eonian/age] life.

Rom 5:12 
Wherefore, as by one man SIN [G266 hamartia- sin, a noun, a thing, not a verb/action] entered into the WORLD [G2889 kosmos, inhabitant-all men], and DEATH by SIN [G266 hamartia- sin, a noun]; and so DEATH [by sin] passed upon ALL MEN[‘world’-inhabitant], for that all have sinned:

1Co 15:56 
The sting of DEATH is SIN [G266 hamartia- sin, a noun]; and the strength of sin is the law.


IN OT:

Ps 51:5
Behold, I [David, Adam and all mankind] was shapen in iniquity; and in SIN [H2399 chet- sin, a noun] did my mother conceive me.

Job 15:14 
What is MAN, that he should be clean? and he which is BORN of a woman ['mother conceive me' - Ps 51:5] , that he should be righteous?


Obviously, SIN bring death. Without SIN bring deathless.


I'm not ask question...Just my thought:
Man (boy/girl) born of woman should be sinless/righteous? If born sin is uncorrect, then should be born righteous, right? Well………………………..are you can banned me?


I feel better now, my heart is light, like a feather.


Brett :D
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2008, 04:40:08 AM »

I included the Scriptures so you can see how Jesus talked about sin in this case.
Below that is Rays email answer to your question.

john: 9 v1-5

1-And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2-And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3-Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4-I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night comes, when no man can work.
5-As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

From Ray emails: Did Adam's sin cause our sin: http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#Adam

George.


I'm not ask question...Just my thought:
Man (boy/girl) born of woman should be sinless/righteous? If born sin is uncorrect, then should be born righteous, right? Well………………………..are you can banned me?


I feel better now, my heart is light, like a feather.


Brett :D

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Robin

  • Guest
Re: Romans 5
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2008, 07:54:49 AM »

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
God knew exactly how to insight hatred out of Joseph’s brothers. And God knows exactly how to insight hated out of US toward HIM. God has the entire human race born under "The law of sin and death." This is why,

"…the carnal mind [the natural mind] is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

The natural mind of man with his non-existent free will is NOT at liberty or free to love God and obey His Spiritual law. Rom. 8:7 along with hundreds of other supporting Scriptures proves this beyond any shadow of a doubt.


1 John 3:
4Everyone who sins [verb] breaks the law; in fact, sin [noun] is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

Romans 7
 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Romans 8
 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm
Men 'sin' (make mistakes) because they operate under the LAW OF MISTAKES. God instituted a "LAW OF MISTAKES." All who are subjected to this law, MAKE MISTAKES. THEY HAVE TO. A LAW IS SOMETHING THAT ALWAYS WORKS ACCORDING TO DESIGN. Humans were designed to operated according to the LAW OF MISTAKES. But most of humanity has never heard of such a thing! A 'law of mistakes.
How has ever heard of such a thing? This is sheer nonsense straight from the "free" mind of one, L. Ray Smith, is it not? No, IT IS NOT! I can't and won't take credit for it. I read about this "law of mistakes" in a book--its called THE BIBLE.

If you are really interested in the Truth, Randy, I will show you the law of mistakes and how it works. It will answer a million questions concerning the supposed malfunctioning machinery of God's creation, and the apparent contradictions of Scripture. Oh, did I tell you that there is also a "law of perfect performance" that is even more powerful than the "law of mistakes?" Men know almost nothing of these two laws, and therefore, they invent clever little heresies such as "free moral agency."


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=18&version=31
Ezekiel 18
19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 08:16:46 AM by M.G. »
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