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Author Topic: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!  (Read 3883 times)

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Richard D

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Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« on: October 04, 2008, 02:26:50 AM »

Itís my intentions out of love for all who may have what I feel misconstrued Rayís teachings on free will verses no free will in like manor as I have. It is my view that this subject is of utmost important and the foundation of the believers walk with God almighty.

In attempting to understand the sin nature within me, I have posted on this forum as all of you can testify to. Understanding every person is under the law of sin or the law of righteousness in attempting to elude through understanding the law of sin.

Before continuing I should like to say without prejudice I pass judgment on no forum member or insinuating on any terms my issue has been caused by any member on this forum.

In a spirit of love I bring to the attention of every brother and sister in the body of Christ which I believe wholeheartedly without doubt I belong also. Iím fully persuaded through Rayís teaching that nothing in heaven or earth or the world below has free will except God our creator who by the council of His will has predetermined all things.

I through Rayís teaching concerning free will had come under the understanding or impression that God brings causes that cause all to sin, which all being subjected to Godís will can not resist.

God can not be tempted nor does God temp anyone to sin. But by nature, all being carnally minded to one degree or another do sin in one degree or another. I believed although I would sin until God stops sending causes that cause me to error.

I find that my error is directly related to consequences of sin which can be most uncomfortable to one degree or another. God indeed sends the causes that produce the cause but itís also my belief that God expects me to learn righteousness through consequences of suffering.

Therefore I find with any desire contrary to the law of righteousness I have not free will but do have choice being able to choose, doing right by virtue through unpleasant consequences learning to do righteousness by the grace of God through His promise of escape by not being temple above that which is greater than my capacity to withstand.

It is self evident to me by virtue of sinful desires does my fiery trials lead me from the law of sin into the law of righteousness day by day until I have finished the worthy race by the grace of God who has called me according to His will for His propose.

If any member on this forum who with unfailing understanding of these truths Ray teaches concerning free will verses will finds Iím in error of this mind that is in me is mislead, please correct me in these things I say.

I freely admit Ií am a child in the faith not having teeth to eat meat but having a neon light with in me that guides me. For this cause I ask always knowing there is greater wisdom as a collective body than as a loner with little understanding. Also if this mind in me is accurate in what I say itís good you should say so also.

  In His Love And Understanding. Richard the young hearted. Peace to all of you.
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AK4

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2008, 11:56:57 AM »

Hi Richard

I too believe that free will is the biggest or most profound or is the strong delusion that was sent by God.  You take this away and none of the false doctrines and religions have a leg to stand on. 

No you have it right Richard.  Getting over free will is tough.  From childhood, say about 1yr old, we are basically taught free will by our parents (and i believe we all are guilty of teaching our children this too) saying to us "why did you do this or that?" and "what do you want to be when you grow up" and "you can be whatever you want to be".

Its a tough pill to swallow and something i think most of mankind will fight tooth and nail for to the death. I believe i have a pretty good grasp on it, but i find myself struggling everyday with it too because i desperately wanna "free will" myself out of cigarettes, but boy do i lose everyday.

Free will is such a brilliant delusion or illusion if you think about.  Praise God!
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Richard D

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2008, 01:14:26 PM »

Hi Anthony

This is the point Iím tiring to drive home, O.K. I donít have free will, I understand this clearly. But knowing I donít have free will, if misunderstood ,can cause me to error.

Do I say to myself, Well now, whatever I do its Gods will, Yes, I believe so, but will not the world learn to do righteousness? Of course the world will learn to do righteousness!

Is it God will that I eat ten chocolate cakes today, Lets say yes ,its  Godís will I eat ten chocolate cakes today.  Do I become sick because I ate ten chocolate cakes today? Yes, I become sick.

Tomorrow, God sends causes to me again, to cause me to want to eat ten chocolate cakes. Do I eat ten chocolate cakes again? God forbid, I remember yesterday I became sick when I ate ten chocolate cakes.

Now, have I not learned to do righteousness? Yes, I have learned to do righteousness through pain and suffering which are the consequences of disobedient.
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Beloved

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2008, 01:45:03 PM »

God's will reign regardless of whether you eat the chocolate cakes, it is Christ in you that leads to righteousness He is the one that helps you obey, you do not do anything to become righteousness.

God is not do Pavlovian studies on mankind (training a dog to salivate when a bell is rung, instead of when food is shown, because he learned a bell=food. , if he then did all the people in the world over the ages who are suffering or who suffered would have responded and become believers. Most are praying to God but for their will not His.

The tribulations are given so that through Christ you learn to listen to the Will of God regardless of the circumstances. It is during the times of darkness that your strength is increased
.

2Co 12:9  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

2Co 13:4  For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

2Co 12:10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 Finally it is the Spirit of Christ Our Comforter now that will get you through the hard place ...He is our example and model.

Mat 26:39  And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Christ prayed this before not during his tribulation. He prayed and commuted with the father daily before he went out and did His Fathers Will. This was His penultimate (next to the last chapter of a book) act before He prayed .......
It is Finished.


The church and the unbelievers will not learn righteousness until they are given eyes to see and ears to hear. Then they can will see that God is totally sovereign and they will be tested also.

Beloved
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Richard D

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2008, 02:59:57 PM »

Beloved.

Yes its true God's will reign regardless of whether I eat the chocolate cakes or not. But none the less, I choose this time not to eat because of the consequences of sickness.

Also would this not be in Godís will that I learn?  Iím beginning to think God has two wills, a perfect will and a submissive will.

Both wills lead all things into complete harmony according to the counsel of his will. I think his perfect will is for those he has chosen and his submissive will is for the rest of humanity at a later time where they will also learn too.

Ray had mentioned something about Godís heart but also Godís mind. Ray said that God purpose something in His mind but it hurts His heart. This is where I see two wills of God.

Yes, only by Christ can I say no to sin for without Christ I can do noting but sin. But with Christ, the next day I say no to the chocolate cake because I remember my sickness but without Christ I can not help but to say yes to the chocolate cake.

But with Christ I say NO. So now I say, its no longer I but Christ that reigns within me.

So I ask, is this mind set in me correct?

                                Youíre friend and brother in our Lord Jesus. Richard. 
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Beloved

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2008, 03:58:45 PM »

My post was not to imply what is correct but to just add aother point of view

you asked So I ask, is this mind set in me correct?

The answer about being correct is difficult to know or tell you....I do not have all the information myself.....correct is relative...I can say it is not perfect.....it will not be in this life.  Also I do not know your mind, Chirst in you has that position.

I do know that man has a way of rationalizing any concept that he takes in....did you not think you were correct when you were in babylon....we all did.... but now we study intensely to show ourselves approved...This should challenge us from every direction.

To learn something knew one must attach it to some concept within us...the problem is finding the correct link. many links must be broken and things reessembled....in order to "get it".

I have to constantly remind myself to not to think that I understand or know any concept of God....I see now that there are too many obstacles have been put there in the past and only Christ knows which are left to remove.

It doesn't mean that one does not know something right now...rather that there may be more to be revealed...One has to keep their eyes and ears open and keep digging. That is why Ray says...what does God's word really say....  but we have to also ask what is real?

Last night I spent time with a friend and for two years talked and talked about universal salvation.....I really thought she understood it .....but last night we studied the word together..


jesus is talking to the Pharisees
(Mat 21:28)  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard.

(Mat 21:29)  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
(Mat 21:30)  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

(Mat 21:31)  .
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you

And she broke down crying because she saw it finally, we also showed her multiple witnesses to this statement.....

later she was surprised when I said this was still milk....but happy when I told her there was far greater things to chew on but it would take digging and time. I myself look forward to these gems, don't you all

 Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

The first speaks of man trying to find them on his own the second speaks of God allowing him to find them.  The important thing is to stay in His word and be looking for him to show us our own obstacles....

Sometimes when I am writing something to someone else I see that it applies directly to something in me...these out of the blue revelations always floor me.

beloved
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AK4

  • Guest
Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2008, 07:47:29 PM »

Quote
Sometimes when I am writing something to someone else I see that it applies directly to something in me...these out of the blue revelations always floor me.

beloved

Beloved, i know what you mean and love it when it happens.

Richard IMO i believe your mind set is right, but its not my opinion that matters.  The question is do you find rest within when you fall to the temptation and eat the ten chocolate cakes?

As for me, if it was me in the situation with the ten cakes and i fall to the temptation, I find rest in Christ because even though i fall and i hate it with a passion that i still keep eating ten cakes a day, i know that is was not my will that was done, but that irregardless of rather i ate the ten cakes or not, i still was doing the Will of the Father. And this is the rest.  I might not understand why it was His Will for me to eat the ten cakes a day now, but maybe some day He will reveal it me--no, for me, I know He will reveal it to me.  And it will all make sense then.

Hope this helps

Anthony
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2008, 08:03:24 PM »

My post was not to imply what is correct but to just add aother point of view

you asked So I ask, is this mind set in me correct?

The answer about being correct is difficult to know or tell you....I do not have all the information myself.....correct is relative...I can say it is not perfect.....it will not be in this life.  Also I do not know your mind, Chirst in you has that position.

I do know that man has a way of rationalizing any concept that he takes in....did you not think you were correct when you were in babylon....we all did.... but now we study intensely to show ourselves approved...This should challenge us from every direction.

To learn something knew one must attach it to some concept within us...the problem is finding the correct link. many links must be broken and things reessembled....in order to "get it".

I have to constantly remind myself to not to think that I understand or know any concept of God....I see now that there are too many obstacles have been put there in the past and only Christ knows which are left to remove.

It doesn't mean that one does not know something right now...rather that there may be more to be revealed...One has to keep their eyes and ears open and keep digging. That is why Ray says...what does God's word really say....  but we have to also ask what is real?

Last night I spent time with a friend and for two years talked and talked about universal salvation.....I really thought she understood it .....but last night we studied the word together..


jesus is talking to the Pharisees
(Mat 21:28)  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard.

(Mat 21:29)  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
(Mat 21:30)  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

(Mat 21:31)  .
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you

And she broke down crying because she saw it finally, we also showed her multiple witnesses to this statement.....

later she was surprised when I said this was still milk....but happy when I told her there was far greater things to chew on but it would take digging and time. I myself look forward to these gems, don't you all

 Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

The first speaks of man trying to find them on his own the second speaks of God allowing him to find them.  The important thing is to stay in His word and be looking for him to show us our own obstacles....

Sometimes when I am writing something to someone else I see that it applies directly to something in me...these out of the blue revelations always floor me.

beloved


Excellent Beloved!

Very well put, I too love how one avenue of His Word leads us to another, sometimes even more profound than what we were searching for in the first place ...... nothing to add here.

Peace,

Joe
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Richard D

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2008, 09:07:18 PM »

Anthony and Beloved.

I thank you both for youíre response to my post, it appears to me Iím always trying to understand God and my relationship with God from A to Z. Its apparent to me God is elusive in all His ways.

I come to the realization that when I believe I understand, I realize I understand not. Or that which I do understand goes much deeper than what I understand, leaving me always perplex.

I understand God loves me but even though I understand God loves me I can not phantom His love for me.

Iím always wondering what Godís will is for my life only to discover I been fulfilling Godís will from birth to present day.

I can only express it is what it is and that be not of myself but by the grace of God.
Praise and honor is to God without end from age to age Amen.

I shall simply wait on the Lord, knowing without knowing Ií am forever fulfilling His will for His propose according to the council of His will.

                             In His Love. Richard. The least of all of you. 
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Chris R

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2008, 09:27:00 PM »

Hi Folks,

Reckon I'll throw in a thought for the pot.


The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,[to be lost, ruined, destroyed] but that all should come to repentance. [2pe 3:9]

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: [Isa 46:10]

How many of us go against the will of God?  All of us!

How many of us go against Gods Purpose?...absolutely none of us.

God is absolutely not willing any should be lost, but the fact is, many are. It is His purpose these are lost for a time, an age, why?..That we may learn from this "tree" of knowledge good and evil.

So yes we do go against Gods will....but not against his purpose.


For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? [Rom 9: 17-20]  

Peace

Chris R




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ScarletWren

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2008, 09:44:14 PM »

Good post, Christ.

I think there are two different greek words used in describing God's intention/will.  One is thelema, I can't recall the other.  I tried to access the greek lexicon I have a link to but it wouldn't come up.  But one we can go against, the other we can't.  What a great God we serve!!!
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Richard D

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2008, 10:03:09 PM »

Chris

Thank you for responding to my post. I learned from what you said about all go against Godís will but no one goes against Godís propose. I find comfort in this realizing everything is of God.

No, I donít understand what I said but I understand Iím right where God wants me to be, even when Iím adding or subtracting Iím fulfilling Godís propose regardless of what I think Iím doing in anything.

And always going against Godís will. In myself Iím irrelevant but to God Iím relevant. So what can I say, if I live I live to God and if I die I die to God. All is of God.
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aqrinc

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2008, 10:19:53 PM »


Bump

Geo.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2008, 11:18:18 PM »


I found a couple of email that I thought would fit in this thread.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1525.0.html ---

We must distinguish between God's "will" as a noun meaing His ultimate purpose and destination of things, and God's "plan" to achieve His "will."  It is God's will that mankind live righteously, but it is His purpose, plan, and intention that they first live UNrighteously.  The first is a necessary precursor to achieve the second. God commands men to do the impossible.  This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness.  And understand that God does not force us to sin. We sin voluntarily from our hearts, and in so doing it is only right and good that we should be punished for sinning. Our hearts and minds must be converted from what they are into the Image of God's Son.

God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6562.0.html ----

Many people feel like you do, Chris, and I receive hundreds of emails stating the same. Actually there are many more thousands who read my site and feel the same but are ashamed to admit it in writing.  It is good to feel as you do for whatever period God deems necessary. Many ask me how to be a PERFECT servant of God, TODAY?  The answer is, God will bring you along and take you through the things that He has already foreknown for you from before the foundation of the world, and nothing you can do or think or say will change God's plan or hurry it up. Nobody wants to suffer in the flesh, not physically, financially, socially, mentally, morally, emotionally, or spiritually.  Yet it is God purpose for us to go through these things.  "...It is an experience of EVIL God has given to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE them by it"  (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Old Testament Version).
 
God is with you Chris, even when you think that maybe He isn't.

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

God be with you,
Ray

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Richard D

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2008, 02:22:35 PM »

Kat

Thank you for responding to my post. I know in my heart and from experience this wonderful insight pertaining to the things of God would not have been possible in the places I use to worship in.

Sometimes I wonder saying Lord there probably shaking their heads at me with these post I post but the care and love and understanding in which my post receives the responses I need is Godís way of saying to me, you see, everything is alright.

As I dwell on these things I cannot help but to see the love of God working in the lives of all here.  :)

Thank you once again Kat. Youíre friend and brother in our Lord. Richard.
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Samson

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2008, 02:56:04 PM »

Good post, Christ.

I think there are two different greek words used in describing God's intention/will.  One is thelema, I can't recall the other.  I tried to access the greek lexicon I have a link to but it wouldn't come up.  But one we can go against, the other we can't.  What a great God we serve!!!


ScarletWren,

                   I think that Boulema(Boo-lay-mah)- (Romans. 8:28) is the Greek Word for Purpose and Thelo is the Greek Word for Will(1Tim. 4:10), it's the strong form of the word Will, even though translators render it " desire ", " wish" or a want, sending the idea to peoples minds that it's just " wishfull thinking" or a hope on Gods part that All will be saved.

                                                In Gods Love, Samson.
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Longhorn

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2008, 03:42:20 PM »

Richard

We were all led or dragged to this site and these truths for a reason.  I remember I typed in the word Hell and Ray's site was the one I logged on.  A couple of days later I typed in the word Hell and Ray's site was not listed.  Im too old and too many brain cells have been destroyed by cheap soda water-whiskey, but this I do know, we have been given a wealth of knowledge on this site for a reason.  Keep digging for the pearls my friend.  I always enjoy your enthusiasm.

Love in Christ

Longhorn
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daywalker

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2008, 08:49:11 PM »

Hi Richard

I too believe that free will is the biggest or most profound or is the strong delusion that was sent by God.  You take this away and none of the false doctrines and religions have a leg to stand on. 

No you have it right Richard.  Getting over free will is tough.  From childhood, say about 1yr old, we are basically taught free will by our parents (and i believe we all are guilty of teaching our children this too) saying to us "why did you do this or that?" and "what do you want to be when you grow up" and "you can be whatever you want to be".

Its a tough pill to swallow and something i think most of mankind will fight tooth and nail for to the death. I believe i have a pretty good grasp on it, but i find myself struggling everyday with it too because i desperately wanna "free will" myself out of cigarettes, but boy do i lose everyday.

Free will is such a brilliant delusion or illusion if you think about.  Praise God!

It sure is a magnificent/overwhelming/humbling illusion, isn't it?  :D

Surely, this is how GOD makes "man's WISDOM... STUPIDITY"!  8)  We come up with all these profound "proofs" that we have a "free will", and how we are in charge, we are our own god's, etc, etc.. and than GOD shows us how UN-free we are, and it really strikes a nerve at first!

"...and the house on the sand fell, and great was the fall of it". Now rather than telling myself, "I can do this... I can change", I am constantly praying to GOD, "Please give me strength... Change me... Make me stop this... " Boy have things changed!

GOD definitely has a sense of humor... The more GOD reveals this illusion to us, the more laughable it becomes that we ever believed such a thing.  ??? Quite painful, and yet humbling.
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AK4

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2008, 09:11:31 PM »

Yes Daywalker

Its astonishing.  It makes me think of when Jesus appeared to the disciples and they didnt even know it was Him they were talking to.

We read the Word and Hes right there in our face, talking to us and we dont see Him.  (when we were in babylon)

I think back on some of what i used to believe and think "gee i was such a stupid knucklehead" and then Just laugh at myself sometimes.
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daywalker

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Re: Free will misconstrued I believe by me!!
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2008, 05:37:07 PM »

Yes Daywalker

Its astonishing.  It makes me think of when Jesus appeared to the disciples and they didnt even know it was Him they were talking to.

We read the Word and Hes right there in our face, talking to us and we dont see Him.  (when we were in babylon)

I think back on some of what i used to believe and think "gee i was such a stupid knucklehead" and then Just laugh at myself sometimes.

Haha I hear ya!

Guess that's why the Scriptures say that Jesus "walks in the midst" of the Church. All they have to do is "come out of her" and they will find Him standing right there.

GOD Bless
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