Futility of Witnessing to Babylon

[Kent]

Kent (and Joe),
I totally understand what you are saying and agree wholeheartedly, but I would like to offer that perhaps Joe's initial post was to encourage us as we experience the rejection that always seems to follow when we do try to share the truths we've learned.  True, not all are teachers, but we can't help but try to share our love of Christ with our families who are still blind.  The key is sharing Christ's love and truth, but not for the sake of making our carnal selves feel superior. 

Thanks for listening to my 1/4 cent!

Vangie

Exactly. We can't feel superior, because I believe we all know how inferior we are.

I suppose some do need to be encouraged when they are rejected. Personally, I don't need it, because I know Who is responsible for that rejection, and there is a reason, a purpose for that rejection.  It just sometimes blows my mind that people reject it, because it is right there in plain sight.

[hillsbororiver]

Let me put it this way. Suppose you are close to someone, and that someone told you that their pastor was demanding the standard 10% of gross income as a tithe. Would you remain silent if you weren't "asked" ? If that pastor then told that person that he/she would be guilty of "stealing from God" and "cursed with a curse" and would burn in hell forever if they didn't tithe, would you still remain silent? You might, I don't know what you'd do, but I sure wouldn't. Now if he/she didn't respond, it's out of the "teachers" hands.

Hi Kent,

I have challenged this despicible teaching in the past with family, my wife, in-laws, etc. I spoke, they listened, they rejected. Not only were they being taught the tithing doctrine but were also being guilt tripped into coughing up even more cash for sound equipment, outreach programs, pastor education, etc.

At first (shortly after discovering BT) I would drone on and on about their error, feel a certain satisfaction when they could not answer with scripture to dispute me, I may have "won" the argument but I lost them. They did not want to talk about religion with me any more.

Now after some time of my wife observing some profound changes in my attitude, my temper and some other things she slowly began asking questions and actually listened! She is no longer in that or any church and even though she is not convinced of everything I believe or that is taught here the door has been opened.

My other family members are still involved in the churches but since I stopped being a clanging cymbal they are willing to talk about some of the things we believe. Again, it was more due to the differences they saw in me rather than any of my "clever" arguments.

As Vangie observed my point was not to discourage anyone from sharing what they feel drawn to share but to not become discouraged by those who God has willed to remain blind and deaf in this season.

Thanks for your questions and for making your points as it has helped me to clarify my position and hopefully not add to any confusion or consternation.

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

From "Winning Souls For Jesus"  http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

LIGHT AND SALT DON'T ARGUE OR MAKE NOISE

"Ye are the salt of the earth... Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid... Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:1,14,16).

Salt does not make any noise, and light does not argue Scriptures. Neither salt nor light makes any sound whatsoever. Maybe there is a lesson in there.

Too many people learn a few truths of God and think that they are ready to take on the world. They usually start by trying to embarrass their Pastor with their new-gained knowledge. Usually they fall flat on their face on the very first try. It's all about motivation. If your motivation is carnal, God will not back you. Yes, I know, all of you are saying: "But my motivation is to show them God's truths." Yes, sure, I understand, but THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR GOD'S TRUTHS, and you already know this, so what is your point? Leave them alone and let them taste your salt and see your light and admire your good works, and perchance they will even praise God for your new-found humility,

You will never argue anyone into accepting the truths of God's Word. As salesmen are often taught: "You might win the argument, but lose the sale," so don't argue. And this: "He who is persuaded against his will; is of the same opinion still."

I receive a lot of emails from people who beg me to come to their rescue because they are about to have a second session with their pastor or friend, but have failed miserably on the first go-round. Now they want me to give them the ammunition they need to do a slam-dunk on their second attempt to embarrass their pastor or friend. Give it up—that attitude is wrong. Such a carnal exhibition of prideful flesh is akin to someone looking for a street fight merely because he has just acquired a black belt in karate.

HOW TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH

I personally know a man who has his little wife working two jobs to support their family so that he can study the Scriptures and enter into doctrinal debates with other Christians at the local cafe as a perpetual hobby. Notice the admonition of the Apostle Peter:

"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; having your conversation [Gk: 'conduct'] honest [Gk: 'honorable'] among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, [Not your clever Bible arguments], which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation" (I Pet. 2:11-12).

Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.

Peace,

Joe

[Amrhrasach]

"Salt does not make any noise, and light does not argue Scriptures. Neither salt nor light makes any sound whatsoever. Maybe there is a lesson in there."

Yup.

The first time I read those words they ended a somewhat lengthy career of arguing scripture on a forum (or with anyone for that matter).

Big difference between someone who wants to know some-thing(s) about the "truth".

Entirely different when arguing is just to argue, and the world if full of those types.    Fruitless and a big waste of time.  In my book anyway.

A.

[Kent]

Joe,

That is one of the things I don't like about forums. Yeah, there are smilies, etc. But there is nothing like face to face discussions to prevent any misunderstandings. My being blunt sometimes doesn't help matters any, even though I have been on forums for some time now and should know better...

I know what I am trying to say, but sometimes the writing doesn't match what I am trying to say, or someone will read it and wonder "what got into him?"

I totally agree with you. One cannot do this just to win arguments. Yes, like you, I can win these arguments easily, but for what reason? It helps no one.
It just so astounds me, that in my astounded state, sometimes I do push things to far when I am talking or writing to others. It's like someone is desperately trying to convince me that the sky is pink with purple polka dots, when to them, that is what I am doing to them. There is no common ground to have a discussion.

In my case, I am at an advantage, and this might put me at a disadvantage when it comes to letting others know what we all know. I knew, from the time I was a kid, what I was learning in babylon was not right, and it had little or nothing to do with scripture. Until I came here, I just didnt know what the answers were.

Maybe it will take a change in tempermant, like it did with you. I probably should leave the meat alone, and stay with the milk, for now. Until someone starts up with the "eternally burning in hell" nonsense. It will take an act of God to keep my mouth shut. But that has happened before.

[hillsbororiver]

Hey Brother Kent,

I know of what you speak and I still struggle with this as well, there are times that I am close to erupting like a volcano when I hear of certain Babylonian doctrines being spoken, it is offensive to us when we hear the awful things being said about our loving Creator that we know are not true.

Peace,

Joe

[Amrhrasach]

This little jewel is a good response and a good fit to the "in spirit and truth" thread.

Rodger said:  "Spiritual Worship understands the pain of growing in Spirit now."

Sharp.

A.