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Author Topic: Love with out truth: kill or lies.  (Read 3367 times)

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moshe

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Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« on: October 08, 2008, 03:47:29 AM »

[This script is not about explaining truths of the bible to others, this is about close relationships]

You canít truly love phileo when there is no truth in between. This love lies.
We canít truly love agapao with out truth. This love lies too.

We must kill the lies with truth, even when this means that with time pass by we must be ready to see certain people walk away of our lifeís (physically or spiritually).

How can we really love others without truth? We canít because Love is truth, but we can wrongly sometimes try to teach what is true without loveÖ

We can toss little seeds, maybe sometimes give opinions, ANSWER QUESTIONS and be grateful with unbelievers and carnal Christians but this does not mean that we can be bound in mutual understanding, brotherly love, fairly giving and receiving witch is phileo love. It is agape love when you donít care if you donít receive truth back, when you are just giving one-way street.

Itís true; teach the truth without love kills, But also: Show true love kills.
 Start acting more often with true, and many around you will start feeling uncomfortable, they are not used to it, but we must persevere fighting, I guess itís a gradually process, but itís worthy.

Agapao and phileo love for our brothers
And just agapao love for the rest

Try to go way deeper on conversation with anybody and with the attention enough you will realize what they are really looking for in life. What if you want to keep searching for truths and try to get closer of a piety life and they want to be rich and buy a lot of things that they donít really need?, What if you want to get away of many of your own mistakes and they are not even aware of theirs?, What if you believe that everything at the end will work out for the good of everyone and they think that you are nuts by believing that?

So letís pray to be able to learn to leave our selfish pretensions behind, letís look at the mirror and detect the enemy because the most evil is removed from us, the most purely we will be able to Love.

Gratuitously we got; gratuitously lets be giving.


This is just a review of what I have understood from Rays papers: Ďdifferent kind of lovesí, Ďunequally yokedí, Ďthe kiss of deathí and IICor.6:14-16.
Also all this came into my thoughts because this phrase: ĎLove with out true kills, truth with out love lies.í
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 08:47:44 PM by acomplishedart_is;not me »
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aqrinc

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2008, 04:28:08 AM »

acomplishedart_is;not me (long name)

The audio series on this very subject has been my companion whenever i get into my truck to go anywhere.
When i read it before i got an understanding, when i listened to it there was an even deeper understanding.
After a few more reads and listens i may be ready to start discussing. The Lesson here is that God Loves us
(Is Loving us) not because we Love Him but in spite of us not even knowing Him. (while we are yet sinners)
Still learning and reading and listening.

Love without Truth Lies; Truth without Love Kills.

Totally in Love,
Geo.
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Rene

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2008, 10:31:27 AM »

Hi Acomplishdart,

It is not easy maintaining close relationships.  We tend to see other peoples faults before we see our own.  When we care about someone, our emotions get all entangled with expectations and when those expectations are not met, our pride and ego can get in the way. :)  Even knowing the spiritual truths I have been blessed with through my studies here at BT, have not protected me from making these same mistakes.

It's all a process.  Everything we experience is necessary in our growth.  God is love and one day, we too, will love perfectly.

Renť
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OBrenda

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2008, 01:04:42 PM »

Hi Moises,

I see you working on your writing talents! ;D  ;D

Yes all relationships are hard, especially when called to walk another path.  I'm so taken with you younger ones that have found the truths taught here, you are revolutionaries.... ;)

A deep & profound subject God's Truth, with the different types of love and how we walk them out in our lives.

Thanks for encouraging us in our continued understanding of this.
Brenda
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Marlene

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2008, 05:32:10 PM »

Hello All,  I totally agree with all. My love for others sometimes gets in my way with zeal of wanting them to believe me. I live with two my Mother and Husband who do not understand. They are not hurting me, but neither are they too interested yet. When you have family who live with you everyday its hard to show the right kind of love because we want so badly for them to understand us. We forget we were once them.  So, now I have to pray daily and at all times for god to teach me to refrain from teaching before they are ready. He will do the work and I have to believe they will at sometime ask. If, not for the time or not forever it is a cross I or anyone who knows truth must bare. I am so blessed to have all the post and subjects to read on. God Blesses me everyday with people who have a like mind and that is more than wonderful. I have always tried to uplift people, and this I believe we should do with those who have truth and just love the ones without truth and let god do his will.
Love To All
Marlene
P. S. I have really been strugling with this for couple of weeks now and see how god works and has this topic on here. Just pray I can show Gods Love not  My Own Zeal for Truth.
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cjwood

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2008, 06:43:47 PM »

love without truth lies; truth without love kills.
this is what has happened to my marriage.
married to an unbeliever who was unfaithful.
lies and deception killed the love.
17 yrs worth.

claudia
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moshe

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2008, 05:15:29 AM »

When we care about someone, our emotions get all entangled with expectations and when those expectations are not met, our pride and ego can get in the way.
Renť

I think many times it is not that people [ WHO DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH or WHO GOD HAS NOT SHOWED THE TRUTH YET ] doesn't want to met our expectations [ TO SHARE PHILEO LOVE WITH US] it's just that [ WHEN THERE IS NOT REAL TRUTH IN BETWEEN] they can not. And then [ AFTER REALIZE THIS ] i have seen that place where my pride had arise, not anymore on disappointment          [ SINCE I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO UNDERSTAND ME ] but by making ideals on them that doesn't exist [ LIKE SUPPOSING THAT THEY STILL UNDERSTAND ME EVEN WHEN OUR PRIORITIES AND BELIEVES ARE SO DIFFERENT ] (maybe [ I HAVE DONE THIS ] on fear of loosing everything that I used to thought that we shared [ WHEN IN REALITY WAS A  RELATIONSHIP BASED ON LIES AND MY OWN ILUSSIONS ]).
Maybe like those teenager lovers where one is giving so much [ TRYING TO LOVE PHILEO ], looking signs where there is none and having in high that girl that in reality doesn't really care about you and who you really are.[ HERE WOULD BE WHERE JUST AGAPE LOVE WOULD FIT]. 
My point is to pray to be able to see others as a whole [ TO BE ABLE TO KNOW WHO WE MUST LOVE PHILEO AND AGAPE AND WHO WE MUST LOVE WITH JUST AGAPE LOVE ] so we can stop sheeting our self's about ( trying to phileo loving ) people around us who are simply walking trough another paths. [ i AM NOT THERE YET, BUT MY GOAL IS TO GET CLOSER TO THIS AS HOPEFULLY EVERYONE HERE ]

Marlene, I really like what you said about uplift just people who stand for the truth, , I also enjoyed your whole post.

[ THIS BY NO MEANS IS SAYING THAT WE CAN'T NOT APPRECIATE, GIVE WITH OUT EXPECTING BACK AND SEE LIFE IN OTHERS WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE LIKE US]

love with out truth kills and true love also kills [IT KILLS MANY OF OUR SELFISH MOTIVATIONS]

moises


ps.with out this forum, it would be many times harder to try to go against the current of this sea of greedy people (including me sometimes a day) and don't walk into depressive loneliness.

 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 03:41:22 AM by acomplishedart_is;not me »
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Akira329

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 02:35:16 PM »

One of my many issues is pride.
When I was younger, my friends and some family members would always come to me if they were in need.
I had a listening ear and a trusting voice I guess. They would tell me secrets that I'm sure no one else would dare to share out loud.
But I'm experiencing something quite the opposite these days, it seems I'm the one in need the most and its killing me!! When friends extend their hand to me, I push it back. Even in their times of need I find myself thinking of me more, when will my needs be met.
It would seem love is becoming harder for me to do when I'm in this condition, but I know God wants me to overcome it.

Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

I'm brought to my knees quite often.

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
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Marlene

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2008, 11:33:13 PM »

Moises and Claudia ,
    I want to share something with both of you. I was raised with quite strict morals. I met a boy we were around 20. At the time I did not know he was recovery from drug addiction. I believe now God had a plan for us to meet. I say it was love at first sight. If, it had  not been when I found out I would have been long gone. I was alreay in love. I grew close to his mother. We lived in different towns and only got to see each other on weekends. We took turns  staying at each others parents. His Mother told me that Doug that is his name
told her I was not like anyone he ever dated.  Now, this is hard to say but I want to for a point. One, night he forced me against my wishes. I was crying and all upset. He just did not get it that this meant the world to me to save myself for marriage. I stayed with him out of Love and obligation to him. I had never loved like this in my life. Latter, on his Mother told me of things he was doing to me. He began to slip up and came down to my place on drugs. I was living with a girlfriend then because we worked in another town. I showed him over and over love. But, we got into a huge fight over it. My love changed instanly. He said, "You will love me till the day you die. He use to tell me my love scared him , and I was strange. He came back a few weeks latter and told me he was sorry that he told me I was strange and scary and other things. Then a few weeks after we broke up he come down and told me he was sorry and that he hoped he could love like me some day. I am sure God wanted him to loose me now that I see the whole picture. Cause, that did not change my mind. Even, he admitted he didnt know how to love. He did not know how so he did not love me. I believe now what the bible says"Love Never Fails". I always wondered what happened with him. When he died, I found out. He became a minister. He was 51 years old. His death led me in here. He had articles online he wrote. At, the time he was Seven Day Adventist. He latter left because he has issues with doctrines in chruches. This led me to questioning my believes even more then before. He was right I will love him till I die. However, god had a plan. He gave me the man who could take my brokeness and heal it. I have been married to him for 29 years now. Again, I say "Love Never Fails" I have been blessed to have loved two  men. One seemed like it failed and the other has not. Even if it seems it fails we just might not know the ending of it all.
Love
Marlene
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moshe

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2008, 10:19:52 PM »

One of my many issues is pride.
When I was younger, my friends and some family members would always come to me if they were in need.
I had a listening ear and a trusting voice I guess. They would tell me secrets that I'm sure no one else would dare to share out loud.
But I'm experiencing something quite the opposite these days, it seems I'm the one in need the most and its killing me!! When friends extend their hand to me, I push it back. Even in their times of need I find myself thinking of me more, when will my needs be met.
It would seem love is becoming harder for me to do when I'm in this condition, but I know God wants me to overcome it.

Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

I'm brought to my knees quite often.

Antaiwan

Lately i have been in some times of needs too, it does seems to be harder to give since we can be self absorbed so easy,
maybe this could be times to be aware the most and try to take any opportunity we get to give (even if its very little) , maybe ones we overcome this desert, we will be able to give a lot more.

I wonder, what does that 40 day's (of Jesus) could really mean?

moises
 


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aqrinc

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2008, 10:52:47 PM »

Yes this is a wonder, first the physical then the Spiritual (Jesus led away to be tempted 40 days) ?.
It does seem to be harder to give in this time of need. The Lord however is our example of how to
resist the urge to concentrate on us (the beast in us) and through Faith take God's Grace and give
of All that we hold dear to those that need it.

George.

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moshe

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2008, 01:32:30 AM »

Moises and Claudia ,
    I want to share something with both of you. I was raised with quite strict morals. I met a boy we were around 20. At the time I did not know he was recovery from drug addiction. I believe now God had a plan for us to meet. I say it was love at first sight. If, it had  not been when I found out I would have been long gone. I was alreay in love. I grew close to his mother. We lived in different towns and only got to see each other on weekends. We took turns  staying at each others parents. His Mother told me that Doug that is his name
told her I was not like anyone he ever dated.  Now, this is hard to say but I want to for a point. One, night he forced me against my wishes. I was crying and all upset. He just did not get it that this meant the world to me to save myself for marriage. I stayed with him out of Love and obligation to him. I had never loved like this in my life. Latter, on his Mother told me of things he was doing to me. He began to slip up and came down to my place on drugs. I was living with a girlfriend then because we worked in another town. I showed him over and over love. But, we got into a huge fight over it. My love changed instanly. He said, "You will love me till the day you die. He use to tell me my love scared him , and I was strange. He came back a few weeks latter and told me he was sorry that he told me I was strange and scary and other things. Then a few weeks after we broke up he come down and told me he was sorry and that he hoped he could love like me some day. I am sure God wanted him to loose me now that I see the whole picture. Cause, that did not change my mind. Even, he admitted he didnt know how to love. He did not know how so he did not love me. I believe now what the bible says"Love Never Fails". I always wondered what happened with him. When he died, I found out. He became a minister. He was 51 years old. His death led me in here. He had articles online he wrote. At, the time he was Seven Day Adventist. He latter left because he has issues with doctrines in chruches. This led me to questioning my believes even more then before. He was right I will love him till I die. However, god had a plan. He gave me the man who could take my brokeness and heal it. I have been married to him for 29 years now. Again, I say "Love Never Fails" I have been blessed to have loved two  men. One seemed like it failed and the other has not. Even if it seems it fails we just might not know the ending of it all.
Love
Marlene


hi marlene, thanks for sharing your story, your perseverance on accepting this guy reminds me of an experience i had with a girl who put my feelings on hard trials (kind of 'broke my heart') a few years ago.
I also think that it is a good example about how everything is predestined to be as how it is suppose to happen.

I added a few explanations to my last post since i think it could may cause another impression of what i was really trying to say, i am agree that agapao and phileo love never fails but what i was trying to convey was that sometimes we can also lie our selves about loving phileo when there is no truth in between.

From the sources (to explain this types of loves) that i used to make this post, it said that we can purely agapao others because we know that someday we will all be change from this weak condition and because we understand that they are part of the whole plan and etc., and that we can phileo others because if we are overcoming together and have the same hope and etc..

If this is this is an absolute, i guess then that sometimes what we tend to call love could be just an idol from our heart.
 
i wish someday i don't feel inadequate to talk about this.
moises


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Marlene

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2008, 05:09:04 AM »

Moises, Yes, I understand what you mean. Sometimes, I do think love can be an idol just even in just wanting to be in love, thinking it is love. I also, think we can say we love others when we really don't. I know before, I came to Bible truths I thought I loved God with all my heart. I really didn't know his true character, and looked at him as someone who had it in for me. Then, when I found out his love for all humanity that Love melted me. To see his love for all and how he would die for everyone. Well, I no longer looked at him from a distance. He never looked at me that way to begin with. Although, organized church looks at it that way. But, now that I see that, I realized its easier not only for me to forgive, but to also see others in the same boat. Its hard to look at the purely evil and love them. Its his to judge. But, I see where he wants us to have compassion on the lost , also. It seems true love just automatically forgives. He loves rather or not we love him back. I guess you might say we have loved some people like that. Maybe we use to pick who to love because we like them. But, yes to give love to humanity is not an easy one.
In His Love
Marlene
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Marlene

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2008, 05:35:29 AM »

Moises, I just wanted to add one thing. I am sure truth is always the best answer. Lies can kill they don't cause us to trust. We often lie to ourselves. That can be a hard one. Yes, sometimes we have needs , also. That unselfish love is a hard one. Especially, when we have needs. I am sure that self often gets in the way. I know it does when we are hurt. Lies do kill love. The trust is lost and that is a hard one. I can understand how anyone married and living with a liar and breaking your heart over and over can kill love. You are right we can want it to be love and we can even lie to ourselves. I think I may be trying to over work this LOL but anyways Truth is always best with others and ourselves. Love Never Fails even when we love without any love returned. Giving up self is the hard one for sure.
In His Love
Marlene
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Stevernator

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2008, 09:29:11 PM »

Good thread Moises.

I have been dealing with some of these issues. I have shared what I've learned on BT with many who are close to me and none of them have tried to learn further. I feel bad sometimes because maybe I'm trying too hard to teach and I know that they cannot see unless God opens their eyes. I don't want to risk having a puffed up ego from learning about the scriptures.

A few days ago there were some hellfire preachers on my campus. They were a bit theatrical and had big signs. It was a big spectacle and there were lots of irritated hecklers in the crowd. So I prayed, "Ok God maybe I can talk to someone and you can plant a seed". So I stood in the back of the crowd and was watching the preachers. A Christian student introduced himself to me and we chatted and he prayed with me for people in the crowd and for me. I suppose that he believed in hell but thought that the preachers should focus more on Jesus Christ and forgiveness rather than sin and hell. I quickly realized that he was sincere and caring.

So I told him that I didn't believe in hell and started telling him what I learned on BT. I talked about fire judgement, death, resurrection, aionios, all, feast of the tabernacles and shared some scriptures. He thought about what I was saying and respectfully brought up some objections which I tried to explain. He wasn't stubborn and he didn't angrily object, but he was considerate. He cautioned me on what I read. Eventually he had to leave and said goodbye and that he was glad to meet me.

Later, I thought maybe I should focus on being more loving and reaching out to people instead of gaining scriptural knowledge and sharing it with people. Maybe I knew a bit more about what is in the Bible but he seemed to be further along in loving people. I'd appreciate prayers to help me let Christ live through me and to share the gospel in love and worship in spirit truth.

But this is difficult for me and I will need the Holy Spirit. I find it hard to connect with my loved ones. We can still enjoy each others company but it is hard to connect when we have such differences in beliefs and desires. What Moises brought up is so true that you cannot phileo someone when there is no truth. It is such a great truth that we want to share with people but it is so difficult.

Even though I am often lonely, I am rather content and excited about life. In my weakness, Jesus can strengthen me and make me stand.
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Richard D

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2008, 10:55:32 PM »

This is a wonderful thread, very down to earth. When I had first read Rayís work I was very excited because he was talking about things that went contrary to what I had believed in, but Ray brought me hope with the things he was conveying in his message.

As I read each scripture he used I could see the truth as plain as day and became comforted in these things realizing these great truths.

I wanted to tell relatives and friends and the whole world. I quickly realize most donít want the truth. I no longer tell anyone these things I learned from Rayís work because I find it futile.

I agree having deeper relationships with everyone in my life but not in a manor to see what they are about as I already know the heart is depraved but rather simply practicing love and forgiveness.

The only expectations I have with any human being is having no expectations as people will always let us down one way or the other. Where there is no law there is no sin and where there is no expectation there is no sorrow, hurt, or anger.

When we have expectations of anyone we set ourselves up to a variety of let downs. When Iím having a conversation with anyone nowadays Iím more apt to listen than speak. When people express pain in there life I try to feel empathy.

When someone does something for me Iím thankful and if against me I try being forgiving. Itís with people we have and experience of good and evil.   ;D


                                               In His Love. Richard.
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moshe

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2008, 08:03:43 PM »

This post is all about relationships in a manor to see what they are all about, since we tend to lie our selves often, it is about to find out who are really our beloved ones by trying to learn well to difference between how we agape and phileo love others (phileo from begging bound to others in all this truths). 
Practicing pure love and forgiveness is not that simple,, it takes a lot, it says that it must start by trying to do what He said which will give us to be living morally excellent, looking knowledge, having self control, endurance and living piety which will drag us to phileo our brothers and love agape everybody.
I know right now i could be talking too high from my mostly present condition, anyhow, i would like this to be my continually goal and life motivator rather than be rich and enjoy materialism as the majority around us believe.




I found this verse in other post - 2 Peter 1: 3-11.

3 As we know Jesus better, his divine power gives us everything we need for living a godly life. He has called us to receive his own glory and goodness! 4 And by that same mighty power, he has given us all of his rich and wonderful promises. He has promised that you will escape the decadence all around you caused by evil desires and that you will share in his divine nature.
5 So make every effort to apply the benefits of these promises to your life. Then your faith will produce a life of moral excellence. A life of moral excellence leads to knowing God better. 6 Knowing God leads to self-control [temperance]. Self-control leads to patient endurance [waiting], and patient endurance leads to godliness [piety]. 7 Godliness [piety] leads to brotherly love [ brotherly kindness Ė greek Philadelphia from philos], and finally you will grow to have genuine love for everyone [agape love]. 8 The more you grow like this, the more you will become productive and useful in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But those who fail to develop these virtues are blind or, at least, very shortsighted. They have already forgotten that God has cleansed them from their old life of sin.
10 So, dear brothers and sisters, work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Doing this, you will never stumble or fall away. 11 And God will open wide the gates of heaven for you to enter into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1: 3-11.



« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 08:07:39 PM by acomplishedart_is;not me »
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moshe

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Re: Love with out truth: kill or lies.
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2008, 08:10:25 PM »


Even though I am often lonely, I am rather content and excited about life. In my weakness, Jesus can strengthen me and make me stand.
Stevernator
I can say the very same right now, not too much exited but i am waiting for it.

moises
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