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Author Topic: Help with Aionios Translation  (Read 2077 times)

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galatians22067

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Help with Aionios Translation
« on: October 14, 2008, 08:05:44 PM »

I see that this phrase for ever and ever does have an end to it as seeing it used here in Rev 11:15 and knowing that it does have an end by reading 1Cor 15 but I just get confused when I read other verses like Rev 4:9,10 / 5:13,14.

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


After someone pointing this out to me I understand that the phrase for ever and ever is used when it does indeed end.  I just seem to have trouble applying it consistently.  Example would be the following verses :

Rev 4:9  And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14  And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.


How should I read these verses, that the four and twenty elders worship him that LIVETH until the end of the ages and that Christ does not live eternally. I am not creating a debate I am just confused and would appreciate any help.

Thanks,

Matt





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EKnight

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Re: Help with Aionios Translation
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 08:28:20 PM »

Thanks for posting this.  I have had the same difficulties/thoughts on this.  I don't have any answers but look forward to hearing what others have to say.

Eileen
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Stevernator

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Re: Help with Aionios Translation
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 08:36:36 PM »

Hi Matt,
It would be helpful to check a more literal translation such as Young's Literal, Concordant Literal or Rotterham's.

Here is YLT
Revelation 11:15 (Young's Literal Translation)

15And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, `The kingdoms of the world did become [those] of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!

Rev 4:9-10
9and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages,

 10fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 5:13-14
13and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'

 14and the four living creatures said, `Amen!' and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages.

I copied this from biblegateway.com

I am not sure what ages of the ages means though.
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Richard D

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Re: Help with Aionios Translation
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 08:57:40 PM »

Iím also wondering because the Hebrew manuscripts do not have the word universe in it as there was no such word in the Hebrew language. So Gen1:1 says God created the heaven and the earth but what it means is God created the universe.

Could ages of ages mean forever? I know Ray talked about the age or ages  but said it does come to and end.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Help with Aionios Translation
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 10:52:17 PM »

I see that this phrase for ever and ever does have an end to it as seeing it used here in Rev 11:15 and knowing that it does have an end by reading 1Cor 15 but I just get confused when I read other verses like Rev 4:9,10 / 5:13,14.

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


After someone pointing this out to me I understand that the phrase for ever and ever is used when it does indeed end.  I just seem to have trouble applying it consistently.  Example would be the following verses :

Rev 4:9  And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Who lives for the Aions of the Aions. [Eons of the Eons in the CLV]

Stop Consider this; If Aion means eternal, than how can you have a plural aionS?
Consider also; If Aion is translated as forever, than it would read as; "Who lives for the foreverS of the foreverS" or "the eternetieS of the eternetieS." Is this even close to logical? I think not.

God lives for the Aions of the aions, meaning all the aions that will ever exist, God will exist as well. God cannot die because He is immortal. It's safe to assume, their will be an infinit amount of aions. However simply because their will be an infinit amount of aions does not mean that the word AION itself suddenly means FOREVER or ETERNAL. Each Aion can very well vary in length in comparison to the next. The aion itself however, is never eternal or infinit. It comes to an end and a new one begins.


Rev 4:10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

See above note.

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

See above note.


Rev 5:14  And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

The above verse does not say that the elders live eons of the eons, but rather that they worship him that lives for the eons of the eons. Simply because Christ lives for the eons of the eons, does not mean He REIGNS for the eons of the eons. Clearly we know He does not, however we do know He will live for the eons of the eons because He is God and we know God will live for the eons of the eons. SEE ABOVE.

How should I read these verses, that the four and twenty elders worship him that LIVETH until the end of the ages and that Christ does not live eternally. I am not creating a debate I am just confused and would appreciate any help.

Christ indeed does live for the eons of the eons, He however does not REIGN for this long a time. His reign comes to an end, not His existance.

Thanks,

Matt

God bless,

Alex

« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 10:55:44 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Kat

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Re: Help with Aionios Translation
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 11:00:42 PM »


Hi Matt,

Here is a excerpt from the letter to Hagee 'The Seven Wonders of Hell.'

http://bible-truths.com/hagee1.htm ---------------

                                  EONS OR FOREVER

The King James does say in Rev. 11:15 that Christ will reign "for ever and ever." However, when you add the 3rd "and for ever," it becomes unscriptural. Furthermore, as the Authorized Version of Rev. 11:15 is an unfortunate and misleading translation, the phrase "for ever and ever" is also unscriptural. Remember, Greek is a very exact language, but King James is a very inexact translation. Here's what God's "exact" Word says regarding this matter.

It never ceases to amaze me that words (most words in most languages) have fairly precise and restricted meanings until these same words are used in religion, where they apparently lose all logic and preciseness of meaning.

First of all, the Greek in Rev. 11:15 is not "for ever and ever," but "aions of the aions." The Greek is not "and," it is "of." It's in the genitive. Check this out for yourself. "Of" contrasts one thing with another. It does not "add" one thing to another. This is a big difference. Rev. 11:15, "aion" is in the plural, "aions." Now if you insist that "aion" means "for ever" or "eternal," how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?" Let me suggest, Mr. Hagee, that that question mark is larger than it appears on this page.

This alone proves that "aion" cannot be translated "eternal." There can be no plurality of eternity. Whatever "aion" means, it cannot mean "eternal."

"Eon" is the closest English equivalent to the Greek word "aion." Age is close, but has no adjective form, as eon does (eonian).

The Greek Scriptures tell us that Christ will reign "for the eons of the eons" or "the ages of the ages." Not "for the eons of the eons of the eons" as your statement suggests. "For the eons of the eons" makes simple and exact sense, and is in harmony with other Scriptures. "For ever and ever" contradicts dozens of other Scriptures, as we will see. The truth is, "for ever and ever" is a contradiction by itself. Both language and logic forbid duplication of anything infinite. There is no such thing as "several eternities" or "multiple for evers" or "numerous everlastings."

In Rev. 11:15 both "eons" are in the PLURAL. So if someone insists that an "aion" means "for ever" or "eternity," then "aions" would be "for evers" or "eternities." Hence it would have to be translated "for evers of evers" or "for eternities of eternities." What sense is there in such contradictory phrases?

And notice please, the Greek is "aions of the aions" not "aions after the aions" or "aions upon the aions." Could it be that there is an "exactness" and purity here that the clergy are failing to teach?

So how are we to understand the Scripture that says Christ will "reign for the eons of the eons?" It's quite simple.
v
v
See its simplicity: There was a time before God made any eons (I Cor. 2:7). Then God made the eons (Heb. 1:2). There were eons in the past (Col 1:26). We are living in this present wicked eon (Gal. 1:4). Satan is the god of this eon (II Cor. 4:4). Christ, not Satan, will reign a thousand years in the next eon (Lk 1:33). The thousand years will come to an end (Rev. 20:3). Christ will reign in the eon that follows the thousand years (Rev. 22:5 and Lk. 1:33). Hence, He reigns for the "eons" (the next two) "of the eons" (all others).

Then the last eon comes to an end (I Cor. 10:11). Christ ceases to reign after the eons come to an end (I Cor. 15:24:28) because He turns over the Kingdom to God His Father and God becomes "all in all." The eons end, but that which is of the Kingdom continues (Lk 1:33 & Isa. 9:7). We all continue "living" after the eons because, just like God, we will then all have been given immortality.
---------------------------------------------------

Hope that helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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