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Author Topic: Need Help Understand A verse  (Read 1855 times)

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Marlene

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Need Help Understand A verse
« on: October 26, 2008, 07:05:14 PM »

I need help with 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 Verse 29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?

In His Love,
Marlene
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Need Help Understand A verse
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 07:56:31 PM »


Hi Marlene,

We can see from the beginning of this chapter that Paul is trying to persuade the believers/brothers, that there is a resurrection from the dead.

1Co 15:3  For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,
v. 4  and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures;

Now as you read these scripture up to verse 29, you can see Paul is explaining to them that since Christ was raised, that they too can have faith that they will be raised. 
The resurrection of the dead does not seem to be believed by most at that time.

1Co 15:12  But if Christ is proclaimed, that He was raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13  But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.
v. 14  And if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless.
v. 15  And we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified of God that He raised Christ; whom He did not raise if the dead are not raised.
v. 16  For if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not raised.
v. 17  And if Christ is not raised, your faith is foolish; you are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18  Then also those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.
v. 19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
v. 20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
v. 21  For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
v. 23  But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

1Cor. 15:29  Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?

So in verse 29 you can see Paul is still trying to convince them that, "those being baptized on behalf of the dead?"  and I believe "the dead" this is talking about is Christ.

Rom 6:3  Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;


Paul goes on to say, "If the dead are not at all raised," or if Christ was not raised, "why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead (Christ)?"  So if they do not believe in a resurrection of the dead, Paul is saying it would be useless to be baptized into Christ's death, "on behalf of the dead," if He was not resurrected.
Paul is saying if they do not believe that Christ was raised, then why would anyone be baptized on behalf of someone who they think is still dead. 
It is not Christ's death that saves us, it is the hope of the resurrection.

Rom 5:10  For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

That's the way this verse 29 looks to me  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Marlene

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Re: Need Help Understand A verse
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 08:31:27 PM »

Hello Kat, Thanks for taking your time on this. Also, I see what he is telling them. Ray , I believe i read that there is not short cut to heaven. We don't go straight to heaven. If , that was the case Abraham would already be in heaven before christ . That is a like. No one goes to heaven before christ. We are in our graves till resurrection. So, this would be a false teaching that Paul hated and so would Christ.

Kat, do you think this is similar to what the organized churches are teaching when they say they are already in heaven or hell. That would not even make there a resurrection or a judgement. Am I right in this thinking.

In His Love,
Marlene
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Linny

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Re: Need Help Understand A verse
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 08:57:14 PM »

Yes, Marlene. I hope it is okay for me to answer?

The church teaches that we are immediately placed in heaven or hell upon our death. And you are right. This goes against the teachings in Rev about the one day of judgement. Plus many other Scriptures as well.

The dead are dead and without consciousness until resurrected. They do not know that they are dead. So when they open their eyes they will indeed be with the Lord as promised.
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Kat

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Re: Need Help Understand A verse
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 09:02:25 PM »


Hi Marlene,

I think that these people Paul was talking to did not believe in life after death at all.  Now you have the church going to the other extreme.  The church have you going to heaven or hell at the moment of death, yet they do believe in the resurrection.  There is the rapture.  How are you resurrected if you are already in heaven?  Some groups do believe you are dead until the resurrection, but they put all kinds of limits on who will go to 'heaven' at the resurrection.  

It's really hard to come to any kind of sense about what the church teaches on the resurrection.  All I can get from all the difference church ideas is confusion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Marlene

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Re: Need Help Understand A verse
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 09:10:25 PM »

Thanks Linny and Kat,
Thats what I was seeing before I found Rays website. I was seeing all the different believes of people who call themselves christians and it was nothing but confusion. God put that feeling of questioning what I was taught in me. It also, led me to feel confused , depressed and without hope. I felt like Hell. Praise God For Ray and people who are there to help us in our walk by uplifting us. By his grace I am learning how to walk this new and right way of the Spirit.
I am so blessed to know you all. I love you all.
In His Love,
Marlene
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digitalwise

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Re: Need Help Understand A verse
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 08:36:49 AM »

This post takes into account various church doctrines on the dead. It not quoted to contradict anything on the forum. It is also very brief.

The majority of the evangelical church [Pre-WW 2] taught we go to paradise. That is from the statement of thief on the cross - "THIS DAY you will be with me in PARADISE".

Paradise - a place of the believer awaiting the day of resurrection - Last Trump. A place believed to be in the face [countenace] of God where departed believing souls feel love and rest.

Another interesting account of the dead is as follows:

The souls under the altar of God - [in His keep] cry out to God for Justice in Revelations. God hears their prayers from the dead martyrs. This comes to God ears where God tells them to wait a while longer till the saints on the earth pass through the troubled waters on the earth to be them at conjunction - which happens resurrection of the dead of elect and non-elect. It is hard not to see this reality when humans since histories dawn have suffered greatly for their faith.

It would be illogical and I know I cross some boundary but IMHO - these mentioned in Revelations obviously get very vocal toward the end and do not keep quiet. 

It gets ever more interesting - the Catholic church teaches Purgitory - a place of cleansing the soul until they are finally resurrected in the Rev 20.

The souls of the lost - or dammed - are lost forever without hope in present day evangelicalism - they are blanked out into darkness of deep sleep awaiting to be resurrected to be dammed to hell torture for eternity.

The above sentence in red is utterly an unteniable doctrine in the light of early church doctrine. No such doctrine existed as far as I am aware in very early church development of doctrine after the death of apostles. 

Many streams of Christianity teach a ONE judgement like the Lutherans in Rev 20.

Modern day evangelicalism since post World War Two have worsened there dogma with a confused pre-trib rapture eschatology derived from the Plymouth Brethern from the UK infecting mainline Southern Baptists churches in the States in turn infecting present day hell fire and brimstone teaching right across the spectrum.

This "infection" is NOT worldwide though and Australian churches along with British Church have held to huge differences in opinion to fundamentalist churches in the US who are the greatest offenders of the hell fire brimstone doctrine of evangelism. This corruption increases as the US translates all end time teaching [eschatology] into the pre-trib rapture dogmas.

Ray's approach to death is quite enlightening and is sound. This is founded on ancient doctrine found in the churches soon after the death of apostles - which for me I cannot understand the hullabaloo and hatred for Ray's doctrine concerning the place of dead souls in light of resurrection.

I do not blame anyone for being confused if you live in states and the sorry state of church doctrine.  Thank God you guys found Ray on this forum against the quicksands of your own US churches - which by the way horrifies me as to the teachings coming out of them.

digitalwise
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Marlene

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Re: Need Help Understand A verse
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2008, 04:23:17 PM »

Hello Digitalwise, Thank you for your informations. Yes, for sure it is an act of God for all of us who have found Ray's teachings and how he shows more then one scripture as a witness. Never  have I ever heard any minister I have listened too even do that.

His article abot death and all his articles are so true. I can't believe I ever bought into Hell or that just a few would be saved. It is surely Good News all are saved.

In His Love,
Marlene
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