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Author Topic: Are the dead, dead?  (Read 1741 times)

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Ricco

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Are the dead, dead?
« on: November 06, 2008, 12:37:19 PM »

Hi there brothers and sisters, God's blessing to all.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How could these be asking for God to avenge them if they know nothing?

Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Just curious for i fully accept that when we die we sleep and await the first resurrection, just interested to know where these people that resurrected from and where did they go, did they die again?

1Sa 28:15  And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

How did Samuel appear from the dead if the dead are dead?



Thank you in advance for your help
God bless you all
Your brother Ricco
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Extol

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
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  • Posts: 614
Re: Are the dead, dead?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2008, 01:08:30 PM »

Hi Ricco,
 Remember that the words of Revelation are spirit. They were SIGNified to John. These dead saints are no more alive than Lazarus and the Rich Man.

 I do not believe that the witch of Endor really saw Samuel brought back to life [though I suppose it's possible]. . However it happened, whether they saw a vision, saw Samuel, or saw something else, God used the witch to bring about Saul's demise.  He works ALL things after the counsel of His own will (Eph. 1:11).

:)

Here is an e-mail from Ray:

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,124.0.html


Hi Ray,

Could you tell me if you explain the "calling up" or "bringing up" of Samuel by the woman at Endor for Saul (1 Sam 28:11 - 19) anywhere in your web site's info. This is due to the fact that I believe the Word that when we die we are dead, our souls are in Hades and Hades is a place of no perception etc as mentioned countless times by you as well.

Your knowledge about this will be appreciated,

God be with you,
Anton


Dear Anton:

Saul does not obey or trust God.

So he goes to a pagan inspired witch that are condemned in Israel.

The witch has a familiar spirit--a demon.

Saul asks the witch to call up Samuel's spirit--a pagan teaching.

God actually caused this opportunity to tell Saul his fate by the channel that Saul himself choose.

God revealed the fate of Saul through this witch.

Samuel was never there. Saul assumed that the "old man" had to be Samuel. It was not.

God be with you,

Ray
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Are the dead, dead?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2008, 01:40:27 PM »


Hi Ricco,

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

I do not believe that this is literal, but is a point in time before the resurrection of the dead and is saying that all those Elect that are "under the altar" or that sacrificed there lives for Christ, have not yet received their reward.  
They were not literally crying out, but God is saying that He has not forgotten them and recognizes that they are still waiting for the resurrection while in their graves.

In Matt. 27 where the Saints (believers in Christ) were resurrected, this is just like Lazarus was raised from the dead.  Of course this was back to physical life and they later died and are awaiting the resurrection to real life in the grave.

As for how Samuel appear from the dead?  

1Sa 28:11  Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
    And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
v. 12  When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!"
v. 13  And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?"
    And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth."
v. 14  So he said to her, "What is his form?"
    And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

Saul ask for Samuel, so what does the medium see, verse 13 "I saw a spirit," and verse 14 "an old man," but she said it was Samuel.  But we know this was not Samuel, but a lying spirit.

1Ki 22:21  Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.'
v. 22  And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.'

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Anyway we know that nobody is in heaven because of what Jesus said.

John 3:13  No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Martinez

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Re: Are the dead, dead?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2008, 04:34:48 PM »


Dead doesn't necessarily mean dead in Revelation.

Dead could mean dead to the flesh but still physically alive!

I don't really think that the souls are asking God for Him to avenge them because that's not really very forgiving at all.

Somewhere in the bible is an interpretation for this verse!
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Stevernator

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Re: Are the dead, dead?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 06:30:10 PM »

I think this verse has something to do with it.

Gen 4
9And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

 10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
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