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Author Topic: 23 Minutes In Hell.  (Read 8706 times)

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musicman

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2008, 11:56:45 AM »

So this guy makes all of that money because he spent 23 little minutes in hell.  Oh, boo hoo, I say.  I spent 9 years in hell and I'm still living on a teacher's salary.  That's right!! It was hell.  This guy says that he woke up screeming (well, maybe in a few of his tetimonies.  They all vary.)  Sometimes I wake up screeming no!!, don't send me back to that inner-city school.  It's hell, there!!  But as the NT scripture claims (well it would if the translators had stayed consistent), "Oh hell, where is thy victory"?  Hell had no victory over me because I got out of it.  Take that Hagee!!  Anyway, I should be able to make millions for my 9 years in hell.  There were also monsters in my hell ripping me apart (spiritually).  And man, was it hot!!?  Oh wait, it was just me that was hot.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 02:13:27 PM by musicman »
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Richard D

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2008, 12:18:16 PM »

Musicman.

You are so right, this guy and his wife concocted this whole story up for the sole sake of revenue and makes more money with their fable hell than all of us combined on this forum than we will make in our lifetime.

And what’s worst is that they will not only live a life of abundance here and now wanting for nothing but after awhile in the lake of fire they will be saved as well, thus not only enjoying this life but the next life to come.

It just doesn’t figure. And to be honest with you musicman, we probable couldn’t make a nickel with the truth. This is truly an evil world.

I wonder if I told people I had a dream that I die and  went to the grave and was really dead and told them I discovered I would have to wait for the resurrection to be brought back to life and that eventually everyone would be saved, I wonder how many books I would sell?

Do you think maybe at least 10 people would buy my book………………LOL


                                         In God’s Love.
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2008, 02:00:44 PM »

You know Richard, that's a good idea.  I'm gonna write a book from the perspective of one who actually died.

It all started when I died.  The last thing I remember was sleeping on the lower bunk at the YMCA.  I glimpsed up and saw Christy Alley (down on her luck, I guess) preparing to climb onto the top bunk.  Before I could scream, NO!!!! everything became blank.  I had no thoughts and no consciousness.  I was dead.  I did not follow some light, I didn't go to some rock in the clouds, I didn't see Satan stabbing people with pitch forks in some super fire.  I was dead.  The ressurection has not happened yet.  I remained dead.  Angles didn't greet me at the pearly gates.  I was dead.  I didn't wonder when I would be raised.  I was dead.  I wasn't anxiouus to get up. I was dead.  I wasn't bored. I was dead.  And since there hasn't yet been a resurrection, I am still dead.  I couldn't have written this book.  I'm dead.  I couldn't have had all of these thoughts.  I'm dead.  I'm not concerned whether my wishes to be burned to a crisp at death were honored, because, I'm dead.  I don't worry that teenagers will dig up my corpesly remains and scare little girls at Halloween parties.  I'm dead.  How long have I been dead?  Don't know.  There is no thought, including concepts of time when one is dead.  Well, that's my story of being dead.  Wait, it couldn't be.  Dead people don't write.  They're dead.  Wish Christy hadn't slept on that bunk bed.

The End!!

Gimmie money!!!


By the way Richard, just think about how great it will be when all mankind has learned the error of his ways.  Kind a like getten through to a stubborn disrespectful child.  When they get it, it makes it all worth it.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 02:08:33 PM by musicman »
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Richard D

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2008, 04:01:50 PM »

Musicman.

Checkout my new thread on the off topic board on ( And God knew my thoughts) I think you’ll find it fascinating and filled with much truth if I might add.  ;D
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2008, 06:19:33 PM »


Hi Richard,

Those that have done evil... yes they will be saved eventually, but I don't think they will fair as well as you think in the lake of fire.  

Jer 10:10  But the LORD is the true God;
       He is the living God and the everlasting King.
       At His wrath the earth will tremble,
       And the nations will not be able to endure His indignation.

Psa 110:5  The Lord is at Your right hand;
       He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
Psa 110:6  He shall judge among the nations,
       He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
       He shall execute the heads of many countries.

Psa 21:8  Your hand will find all Your enemies;
       Your right hand will find those who hate You.
Psa 21:9  You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger;
       The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath,
       And the fire shall devour them.

Isa 34:2  For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations,
       And His fury against all their armies;
       He has utterly destroyed them,
       He has given them over to the slaughter.

Rev 6:14  Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16  and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Rev 16:19  Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Luke 21:36  Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

It seems that it will be and extremely difficult thing for some, perhaps for those that have been living extravagant life styles, purporting to spread the good news.

Luke 12:47  And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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David

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2008, 08:01:53 PM »

Thanks Richard for your comments.
I am a little troubled by this comment though,

Quote
And what’s worst is that they will not only live a life of abundance here and now wanting for nothing but after awhile in the lake of fire they will be saved as well, thus not only enjoying this life but the next life to come.

It just doesn’t figure.

These people are not in need of nothing, far from it. They think they are rich, in need of nothing and increased with goods when in fact they are wretched, poor, miserable, naked and blind. They have nothing of value at all while they are teaching this vile nonsense.
 Also it would seem there is some resentment in you that these people too will one day be saved. Just remember these people are what we were yesterday, and thank God that He chose to save us now, if indeed He is.

Kat, I don't think many of us understand what Gods wrath actually is or will be. Ray teaches that the elect do not go through Gods wrath, and I believe he is right. However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it? I don't.
We're taught through scripture that we must develop many wonderful Christ like qualities such as love, patience, long suffering, mercy just to name a few. I believe the elect are to develop these qualities for a reason, that extends beyond the physical life on earth.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2008, 08:53:32 PM »


Hi David,

Quote
However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it?

I do believe that when the Elect are ruling with Christ, they will be one with God and they will view the purging and correcting of the carnality out of all humanity as a necessary thing and will indeed be administering it themselves.  What will be done will be painful, but God knows what is necessary to order to bring about salvation.

Here is an excerpt from the article 'Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory' that shows the difference that our tribulation now and those underGod's wrath later.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ------------

At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:

1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.

AND

2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress

VERSUS

3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance

AND

4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.

Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.

It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.

The Scripture says,

"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).

I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).

When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation.
---------------------------------------------------------
 
mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Richard D

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2008, 08:58:48 PM »

Hello David.


My thoughts are difficult to convey concerning my understanding in God’s truths and although I am far from knowing it all, I have come to the realization that life is a stage with God as the author and director and we are the actors who play out that which was written before the foundations of the world and even the universe.

Although each and every human being must play out their part or role the conclusion was determined before these things came into existence.

You said that these people who are wretched, poor, miserable, naked and blind and this is true, but they don’t even have a clue they are because they are blind and because they are blind they are also happy in this life with their riches and comfortable life style they have.

I don’t have resentment against such as these or others because God chose this for them as it fits into His purpose. My outlook is not the same today as it was before I read Ray’s work.

If one believes in the hell doctrine, what’s that to me, I used to believe also in the hell doctrine but have been persuaded differently through ray’s teaching. But if I had of read Ray’s papers five years ago, would I have of excepted Ray’s work as truth? I don’t know.

I was just listening to Ray’s audio tapes on can one loose their salvation and the conclusion was yes they can but my thoughts are, was it God’s purpose for them to be saved and then something went wrong and God did not have His purpose fulfilled?

God is responsible for all the evil things as well as the good things that have ever happen although we are accountable for those things which we do.

Our will is subjected to God’s will and we will do what ever His will determines by the counsel of His will and by the counsel of His will has God determined who will be saved who will say yes but fall away and who will not be saved.

We are all at the mercy of God whether saved or unsaved and those who are saved are not saved by or through any merit of their own but by God’s grace has he chosen those who would be saved.

And as horrible as the hell doctrine might be God purpose that doctrine and those who brought about this doctrine are accountable for it but it is God who is responsible for it.
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David

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2008, 02:34:58 PM »


Hi David,

Quote
However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it?

I do believe that when the Elect are ruling with Christ, they will be one with God and they will view the purging and correcting of the carnality out of all humanity as a necessary thing and will indeed be administering it themselves.  What will be done will be painful, but God knows what is necessary to order to bring about salvation.

Here is an excerpt from the article 'Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory' that shows the difference that our tribulation now and those underGod's wrath later.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ------------

At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:

1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.

AND

2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress

VERSUS

3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance

AND

4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.

Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.

It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.

The Scripture says,

"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).

I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).

When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation.
---------------------------------------------------------
 
mercy, peace and love
Kat



Thank you Kat. I agree with most of your statement, that the elect will be at one with God and will be used to administer Gods purifying of the wicked and stubourn. Rev 14 tells us that. I don't believe that it will be a physically painful expereince, I believe it will be spiritually difficult, spiritually painful and of much spiritual torment to the stubourn in particular.
The elect are already going through such spiritual tribulation, or have gone through it in order to come to a knowledge of the truth. Realising that everything we believed, were taught by people we trusted and loved etc, everything we thought we knew was totally wrong is a very bitter pill to swallow for a time. And in that realisation comes the reality that all of it was of God, that it was God that blinded us for a time. That too is very difficult to come to terms with until we see why He does it.
Some teach that the elect go through this process that I have just described, but those who come up to judgment go through much much worse in the LOF. To me thats just a watered down version of hell.
I still think a complete understanding of what goes on in the LOF is misunderstood by many.
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Richard D

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2008, 04:01:18 PM »

David.

I also agree with your statement of a watered down version of hell. God is no respecter of persons and what we go through here and now the rest will go through the same thing there and then.


Although I read in another thread that those who are not saved in this life will be raised with a fleshly body and have to live this type of life over a second time. I guess that would be the real agony.

It would be good to have a greater in-depth study on what one goes through in the lake of fire.

                                          In God’s Love. Richard.
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Marlene

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2008, 04:49:55 PM »

Hello, I agree that Spiritual correction is painfull. I know that hurts more then anything has ever hurt me. But, with the correction comes great joy now. I can see what he has done . He has made me what I could never be on my own. Try as I might, I could not do it. I never want to boast of it.

He has his plan and he will do it. Everything is good for the purpose he planned it to be. In the end Christ will be all in all.  I do believe the elect goes through it now. The rest of Humanity will go through a process like we did here. I know, that some have suffered worse trials then me. I know some have not. But, our Father knows how to correct us. I speaking for myself , know that seeing who we are inside shocks us and it hurts and at first we may fight it. But, if we are his Elect he will bring us to the finish line. If, that process has to be in the second death. I again think he will give to each as is needed to make them give up self. He will burn them all out. That, is making us into his Image. We will have his Character  the Elect and the rest of Humanity. I feel from what I see that he judges and knows what it takes. Some, in the rest of Humanity might need more and some less. Only, he knows how to do it.

In His Love,
Marlene

I love knowing it is all his doing. Because, he showed me over and over in my falls that I cannot obey with out him. We are not Independent of him. It all depends on him. I believe we all see that , who have come out of Babylons hold. He choose to show mercy on some now. The rest in his time.

In His Love,
Marlene
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David

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2008, 09:09:22 PM »

David.



Although I read in another thread that those who are not saved in this life will be raised with a fleshly body and have to live this type of life over a second time. I guess that would be the real agony.



                                          In God’s Love. Richard.

1 Cor 15:44 It is sewn a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2008, 09:57:26 PM »


Hi David,

Quote
Some teach that the elect go through this process that I have just described, but those who come up to judgment go through much much worse in the LOF. To me that's just a watered down version of hell.
I still think a complete understanding of what goes on in the LOF is misunderstood by many.


Yes the lake of fire is hard to really understand how it will be.  But there are a few Scripture that I think can help us understand it a bit more.  Thinking about John the Baptist and what Christ said about him.

Mat 11:11  "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Christ said, "among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist," so he will not be in the first resurrection, because it says "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."  What will the lake of fire be like for him?

Luke 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I can't help but think for those that are not rebellious and do not resist God, such as John the Baptist, that they will go through the lake of fire process with relatively little pain and suffering "few stripes."  The lake of fire is going to be a process to bring about righteousness.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

Now it is true that there will be those that will have to be purged of many false doctrines and a multitude of character flaws, before they can began to learn righteousness.  I do believe in the lake of fire God will show His harshness "many stripes," with those who deserve it.  Likewise He will show mercy "few stripes" to those that deserve it.

Eze 7:27  "The king will mourn,
       The prince will be clothed with desolation,
       And the hands of the common people will tremble.
       I will do to them according to their way,
       And according to what they deserve I will judge them;
       Then they shall know that I am the LORD!"'

Maybe that the Elect are in such a corrupt world, God is blessing them much because of such unfavorable circumstances.  

John 20:29  Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Being chosen in this world seems to be especially difficult for believers and God blesses them likewise.  This will not be the case in the lake of fire as Christ will be ruling on earth and He will bring the world out of all this corruption and immorality.  Just some things to think about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Richard D

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2008, 11:42:28 PM »

Hi Kat.

Kat, I have a lot of respect for you, I really do sister but the notion of John the Baptist being thrown into the lake of fire I cannot comprehend. John the Baptist was kind of a righteous man you know.

What’s John the Baptist crime in life may I ask. He ate locust and wild honey and was a Godly man who lived in the desert and never had strong drink or chase women around but was a good man and a faithful servant of the Lord and besides Jesus was his cousin too you know.

If that’s how Jesus treats kin folk what in God’s creation do you think he will do to us may I ask. I always believed that scripture to mean what it says, the greatest person on earth is less than the least in heaven which is only telling us that the least part in heaven is better than the greatest part of earth.

If John the Baptist is not in the first resurrection then I see no hope for anyone because John was a Godly man and so then if that is what god is going to do to John then I being worst than John will be their too.  :(

                                                     In God’s Love. Richard.
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Ninny

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2008, 12:20:37 AM »

Kat,
I am with Richard on this one I don't understand that either. I thought that verse means even though John the Baptist was the greatest of men you don't have to be great on this world to be great in God's kingdom. ???
Kathy :)
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2008, 12:33:09 AM »

Hi Kat.

Kat, I have a lot of respect for you, I really do sister but the notion of John the Baptist being thrown into the lake of fire I cannot comprehend. John the Baptist was kind of a righteous man you know.

What’s John the Baptist crime in life may I ask. He ate locust and wild honey and was a Godly man who lived in the desert and never had strong drink or chase women around but was a good man and a faithful servant of the Lord and besides Jesus was his cousin too you know.

If that’s how Jesus treats kin folk what in God’s creation do you think he will do to us may I ask. I always believed that scripture to mean what it says, the greatest person on earth is less than the least in heaven which is only telling us that the least part in heaven is better than the greatest part of earth.

If John the Baptist is not in the first resurrection then I see no hope for anyone because John was a Godly man and so then if that is what god is going to do to John then I being worst than John will be their too.  :(

                                                     In God’s Love. Richard.


Grace and truth came by Jesus [John 1:17] which came after the Resurrection [...the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... (John 16:13)]. John was already dead...just like all the other saints of old who DID NOT receive the promise [Heb 11].

Why have you lost all hope for anyone being in the 1st resurrection? Where is your faith? I don't understand Richard...sometimes you show great progress in your posts. Then other times, like this, you come up with these carnal reasonings and false interpretations. Believe the scriptures...stop trying to reason them.


Marques

P.S.  I see Kathy posted a comment as well...the verse says: Mat 11:11  "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

If the least in the first resurrection aka kingdom of heaven is greater than John, then John could not possibly be in the 1st resurrection. Otherwise, he would be the least. Hebrews 11 confirms this as well...who do you think Jesus was comparing John to? The OT saints, that's who and they ALL did not receive the promise. There is a MUCH BETTER chance that one of our insignificant forum members will be in the kingdom of heaven before these well-known figures: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, John, etc. I repeat: MUCH BETTER! That's something to chew on...and that much better includes YOU! Mods, forum members, guests, those who hardly post, etc...YOU!  :D

1 Corinthians Chapter 1
27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 12:35:13 AM by mharrell08 »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2008, 12:41:02 AM »


Hi Richard,

You have to understand that Jesus Christ was the FIRST fruit.  No one that died before His resurrection will be in the first resurrection and that includes John the Baptist.  The first resurrection is reserved for the few chosen Elect, prepared to rule with Christ.  But these are not the cream of the crop, so to speak, but rather more like the least you would expect it to be in it. 

1Co 1:28  and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that He might bring to nought the things that are:

It seems to me that God has chosen out those most unlikely, to prove that He can accomplish bringing any person to righteousness.

1Co 1:29  that no flesh should glory before God.

Here is an excerpt from the article 'Twelve God-Given Truths To Understand His Word.'

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm -----------------------------------

What do the Scriptures say regarding the present condition of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham & Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and the prophets, of whom Elijah was one? Are they alive today? Did they receive the promises. Are they in heaven? Hold on, cause I’m about to knock your socks off:

"These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES… For they that say such things declare plainly that they SEEK a country… they DESIRE a better country, that is a HEAVENLY… And ALL THESE, having obtained a good report through faith, [here comes the second witness that they are dead and not in heaven]… RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: God having provided some better thing FOR US, that THEY without US should NOT BE MADE [future tense, not past tense—it hasn’t happened YET] perfect" (Verses 13-14, 16, 39-40).

WOW!

I would venture to say that not a thousand people alive on earth today have ever seen or had the above Scripture explained to them. Yet this Scripture is in perfect harmony with ALL other Scripture, but TOTALLY CONTRADICTS ALL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

ALL of the men and women of faith, the fathers, the patriarchs, and prophets are DEAD.

ALL of them died "looking for a country & home afar off," which they never received.

ALL these received a "good report," but they received NO PROMISES.

ALL these "desired a heavenly" home, but they NEVER RECEIVED IT.

ALL these will remain dead until WE are given OUR promises.

OUR promise is better: "God having provided some BETTER THING FOR US."

WE are to become "perfect" Col. 4:12; Eph. 4:13; Gal. 3:3; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; etc,

WE are to become "perfect" BEFORE the saints of old; BEFORE Moses & Elijah.

THEY are not only made perfect AFTER us, but are made perfect THROUGH US!

Not even John the Baptist is as great as the very least in the Kingdom of God (Matt. 11:11).

Grace was not given to save the saints of old. Grace came by JESUS CHRIST, not by Moses, neither to nor for Moses (John 1:17). Hebrews 11, speaking of ALL the saints that were before us clearly declares that, " for they without [Gk: ‘apart from’] US should NOT be made perfect [or ‘complete’].

Hebrews was written at least a whole generation after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and at that time the saints of old had not yet received their promises, so guess what? They are all still dead in their graves awaiting the Second Resurrection, as they cannot be made perfect or complete except through those who come up in the First resurrection. And no one is ever made "complete" except through Jesus Christ (Col. 2:10).

Have you not read:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US [‘Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the eons are come’ I Cor. 10:11] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto YOU by them that have preached the gospel unto YOU with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of YOUR mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto YOU [not ‘them’—they DIED not receiving the promises made to them] at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:12-13).

Jesus Christ is the "wave sheaf" and the "firstfruit," but the saints and patriarchs of old were not "firstfruits" at all. Jesus, not they, was the FIRST of the firstfruits" (I Cor. 15:20& 23), and WE, not they, are also "firstfruits" (James 1:18 & Rev. 14:4). When will we believe the Scriptures? The FIRST to be called will be the LAST TO BE SAVED, and the LAST to be called will be the FIRST TO BE SAVED (Matt. 19:30 and 20:16).


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Any that are not of the Elect, none that died before Christ's resurrection were, do not have their name in the book of life (Jesus Christ).  If they are not in the first resurrection then there is nothing else, but for them to go into the lake of fire. 

Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

But this is not necessarily a horrible fate.  This is an excerpt from the article 'God judges the World In A Pond.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html -------------------------------------

WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?

Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."

And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).

A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection)… in a pond. A pond of divine, purifying SPIRIT.

This word limen has the word "fair" before it in Acts 27:8, in the King James Version—the "fair havens." Other translations render this verse as "safe harbor." (My father helped build Safe Harbor Dam in Pennsylvania).

Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.

SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THE DIVINE LAKE OF FIRE

Perhaps one reason that God describes this place of judgment as a "pond" or "lake" rather than a "harbor" is because a lake is landlocked, thus preventing a return to the perilous winds and waves of the deep sea from which these occupants have figuratively come:

"And the SEA gave up the dead [spiritually dead people] which were in it…"
v
v
GOD’S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE

I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.

Ponder this:

Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).

We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).

We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).

God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).

We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

God promises us that, "…the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD…" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!

God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:

"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"

And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!

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mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 12:44:37 AM by Kat »
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2008, 12:53:15 AM »


Marques and Kat,

Thanks again, i keep reading The LOF series and it keeps giving. Then when i read your posts,
those give even more of the same; wow this is the greatest smorgasbord in the world. I get
to gorge myself day and night for one small fee (Love).

george. ;D

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Richard D

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2008, 10:27:38 AM »

Hi Kat.

I read that excerpt you have given, God judges the world in a pond and understand why you said John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection. Kat, what can I say to you, I was wrong in what I said and you were right.

There is so much I don’t know and so much I need to learn and in the end I realize I’ll never know it all on this side of life.

I remembered a scripture I read about the first being last and the last being first, I guess this scripture applies here no doubt.

Kat, you are truly a wonderful sister in the Lord and a blessing not only on this forum but also in my life as well and I thank you for your patients with me.

I want you to know your words are not in vain towards me as I learned something new this day and although this is somewhat of a heavy blow to me I accept the truth in what you say.  :)

Anyways Kat, the thing is I apologize to you personally for coming off kind of strong with you in my reply I directed towards you and find I not only learned something this day but also feel like a heel too.  :-[


                        In God’s Love. Your brother in Christ. Richard.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 10:29:33 AM by Richard D »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: 23 Minutes In Hell.
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2008, 11:11:53 AM »


Hi Richard,

You have nothing to apologize for, I understood you just had not reached this in your understanding yet.  There is must we all still have to learn.  I have been studying Ray's material a wee bit longer than you and I remembered his teaching on this, so of course I wanted to help a brother and I have already noticed that you take to heart what someone explains to you.  God has blessed me with time and the desire to help whereever I can at this forum, I am just too happy to do so.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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