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23 Minutes In Hell.
David:
Thanks Richard for your comments.
I am a little troubled by this comment though,
--- Quote ---And what’s worst is that they will not only live a life of abundance here and now wanting for nothing but after awhile in the lake of fire they will be saved as well, thus not only enjoying this life but the next life to come.
It just doesn’t figure.
--- End quote ---
These people are not in need of nothing, far from it. They think they are rich, in need of nothing and increased with goods when in fact they are wretched, poor, miserable, naked and blind. They have nothing of value at all while they are teaching this vile nonsense.
Also it would seem there is some resentment in you that these people too will one day be saved. Just remember these people are what we were yesterday, and thank God that He chose to save us now, if indeed He is.
Kat, I don't think many of us understand what Gods wrath actually is or will be. Ray teaches that the elect do not go through Gods wrath, and I believe he is right. However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it? I don't.
We're taught through scripture that we must develop many wonderful Christ like qualities such as love, patience, long suffering, mercy just to name a few. I believe the elect are to develop these qualities for a reason, that extends beyond the physical life on earth.
Kat:
Hi David,
--- Quote ---However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it?
--- End quote ---
I do believe that when the Elect are ruling with Christ, they will be one with God and they will view the purging and correcting of the carnality out of all humanity as a necessary thing and will indeed be administering it themselves. What will be done will be painful, but God knows what is necessary to order to bring about salvation.
Here is an excerpt from the article 'Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory' that shows the difference that our tribulation now and those underGod's wrath later.
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ------------
At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:
1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.
AND
2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress
VERSUS
3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance
AND
4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.
Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.
It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.
The Scripture says,
"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).
It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).
I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).
When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation.
---------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Richard D:
Hello David.
My thoughts are difficult to convey concerning my understanding in God’s truths and although I am far from knowing it all, I have come to the realization that life is a stage with God as the author and director and we are the actors who play out that which was written before the foundations of the world and even the universe.
Although each and every human being must play out their part or role the conclusion was determined before these things came into existence.
You said that these people who are wretched, poor, miserable, naked and blind and this is true, but they don’t even have a clue they are because they are blind and because they are blind they are also happy in this life with their riches and comfortable life style they have.
I don’t have resentment against such as these or others because God chose this for them as it fits into His purpose. My outlook is not the same today as it was before I read Ray’s work.
If one believes in the hell doctrine, what’s that to me, I used to believe also in the hell doctrine but have been persuaded differently through ray’s teaching. But if I had of read Ray’s papers five years ago, would I have of excepted Ray’s work as truth? I don’t know.
I was just listening to Ray’s audio tapes on can one loose their salvation and the conclusion was yes they can but my thoughts are, was it God’s purpose for them to be saved and then something went wrong and God did not have His purpose fulfilled?
God is responsible for all the evil things as well as the good things that have ever happen although we are accountable for those things which we do.
Our will is subjected to God’s will and we will do what ever His will determines by the counsel of His will and by the counsel of His will has God determined who will be saved who will say yes but fall away and who will not be saved.
We are all at the mercy of God whether saved or unsaved and those who are saved are not saved by or through any merit of their own but by God’s grace has he chosen those who would be saved.
And as horrible as the hell doctrine might be God purpose that doctrine and those who brought about this doctrine are accountable for it but it is God who is responsible for it.
David:
--- Quote from: Kat on November 14, 2008, 05:53:32 PM ---
Hi David,
--- Quote ---However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it?
--- End quote ---
I do believe that when the Elect are ruling with Christ, they will be one with God and they will view the purging and correcting of the carnality out of all humanity as a necessary thing and will indeed be administering it themselves. What will be done will be painful, but God knows what is necessary to order to bring about salvation.
Here is an excerpt from the article 'Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory' that shows the difference that our tribulation now and those underGod's wrath later.
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ------------
At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:
1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.
AND
2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress
VERSUS
3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance
AND
4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.
Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.
It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.
The Scripture says,
"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).
It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).
I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).
When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation.
---------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Thank you Kat. I agree with most of your statement, that the elect will be at one with God and will be used to administer Gods purifying of the wicked and stubourn. Rev 14 tells us that. I don't believe that it will be a physically painful expereince, I believe it will be spiritually difficult, spiritually painful and of much spiritual torment to the stubourn in particular.
The elect are already going through such spiritual tribulation, or have gone through it in order to come to a knowledge of the truth. Realising that everything we believed, were taught by people we trusted and loved etc, everything we thought we knew was totally wrong is a very bitter pill to swallow for a time. And in that realisation comes the reality that all of it was of God, that it was God that blinded us for a time. That too is very difficult to come to terms with until we see why He does it.
Some teach that the elect go through this process that I have just described, but those who come up to judgment go through much much worse in the LOF. To me thats just a watered down version of hell.
I still think a complete understanding of what goes on in the LOF is misunderstood by many.
Richard D:
David.
I also agree with your statement of a watered down version of hell. God is no respecter of persons and what we go through here and now the rest will go through the same thing there and then.
Although I read in another thread that those who are not saved in this life will be raised with a fleshly body and have to live this type of life over a second time. I guess that would be the real agony.
It would be good to have a greater in-depth study on what one goes through in the lake of fire.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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