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23 Minutes In Hell.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Richard D on November 16, 2008, 08:42:28 PM ---Hi Kat.
Kat, I have a lot of respect for you, I really do sister but the notion of John the Baptist being thrown into the lake of fire I cannot comprehend. John the Baptist was kind of a righteous man you know.
What’s John the Baptist crime in life may I ask. He ate locust and wild honey and was a Godly man who lived in the desert and never had strong drink or chase women around but was a good man and a faithful servant of the Lord and besides Jesus was his cousin too you know.
If that’s how Jesus treats kin folk what in God’s creation do you think he will do to us may I ask. I always believed that scripture to mean what it says, the greatest person on earth is less than the least in heaven which is only telling us that the least part in heaven is better than the greatest part of earth.
If John the Baptist is not in the first resurrection then I see no hope for anyone because John was a Godly man and so then if that is what god is going to do to John then I being worst than John will be their too. :(
In God’s Love. Richard.
--- End quote ---
Grace and truth came by Jesus [John 1:17] which came after the Resurrection [...the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... (John 16:13)]. John was already dead...just like all the other saints of old who DID NOT receive the promise [Heb 11].
Why have you lost all hope for anyone being in the 1st resurrection? Where is your faith? I don't understand Richard...sometimes you show great progress in your posts. Then other times, like this, you come up with these carnal reasonings and false interpretations. Believe the scriptures...stop trying to reason them.
Marques
P.S. I see Kathy posted a comment as well...the verse says: Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
If the least in the first resurrection aka kingdom of heaven is greater than John, then John could not possibly be in the 1st resurrection. Otherwise, he would be the least. Hebrews 11 confirms this as well...who do you think Jesus was comparing John to? The OT saints, that's who and they ALL did not receive the promise. There is a MUCH BETTER chance that one of our insignificant forum members will be in the kingdom of heaven before these well-known figures: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, John, etc. I repeat: MUCH BETTER! That's something to chew on...and that much better includes YOU! Mods, forum members, guests, those who hardly post, etc...YOU! :D
1 Corinthians Chapter 1
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Kat:
Hi Richard,
You have to understand that Jesus Christ was the FIRST fruit. No one that died before His resurrection will be in the first resurrection and that includes John the Baptist. The first resurrection is reserved for the few chosen Elect, prepared to rule with Christ. But these are not the cream of the crop, so to speak, but rather more like the least you would expect it to be in it.
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that He might bring to nought the things that are:
It seems to me that God has chosen out those most unlikely, to prove that He can accomplish bringing any person to righteousness.
1Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory before God.
Here is an excerpt from the article 'Twelve God-Given Truths To Understand His Word.'
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm -----------------------------------
What do the Scriptures say regarding the present condition of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham & Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and the prophets, of whom Elijah was one? Are they alive today? Did they receive the promises. Are they in heaven? Hold on, cause I’m about to knock your socks off:
"These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES… For they that say such things declare plainly that they SEEK a country… they DESIRE a better country, that is a HEAVENLY… And ALL THESE, having obtained a good report through faith, [here comes the second witness that they are dead and not in heaven]… RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: God having provided some better thing FOR US, that THEY without US should NOT BE MADE [future tense, not past tense—it hasn’t happened YET] perfect" (Verses 13-14, 16, 39-40).
WOW!
I would venture to say that not a thousand people alive on earth today have ever seen or had the above Scripture explained to them. Yet this Scripture is in perfect harmony with ALL other Scripture, but TOTALLY CONTRADICTS ALL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.
ALL of the men and women of faith, the fathers, the patriarchs, and prophets are DEAD.
ALL of them died "looking for a country & home afar off," which they never received.
ALL these received a "good report," but they received NO PROMISES.
ALL these "desired a heavenly" home, but they NEVER RECEIVED IT.
ALL these will remain dead until WE are given OUR promises.
OUR promise is better: "God having provided some BETTER THING FOR US."
WE are to become "perfect" Col. 4:12; Eph. 4:13; Gal. 3:3; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; etc,
WE are to become "perfect" BEFORE the saints of old; BEFORE Moses & Elijah.
THEY are not only made perfect AFTER us, but are made perfect THROUGH US!
Not even John the Baptist is as great as the very least in the Kingdom of God (Matt. 11:11).
Grace was not given to save the saints of old. Grace came by JESUS CHRIST, not by Moses, neither to nor for Moses (John 1:17). Hebrews 11, speaking of ALL the saints that were before us clearly declares that, " for they without [Gk: ‘apart from’] US should NOT be made perfect [or ‘complete’].
Hebrews was written at least a whole generation after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and at that time the saints of old had not yet received their promises, so guess what? They are all still dead in their graves awaiting the Second Resurrection, as they cannot be made perfect or complete except through those who come up in the First resurrection. And no one is ever made "complete" except through Jesus Christ (Col. 2:10).
Have you not read:
"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US [‘Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the eons are come’ I Cor. 10:11] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto YOU by them that have preached the gospel unto YOU with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of YOUR mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto YOU [not ‘them’—they DIED not receiving the promises made to them] at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:12-13).
Jesus Christ is the "wave sheaf" and the "firstfruit," but the saints and patriarchs of old were not "firstfruits" at all. Jesus, not they, was the FIRST of the firstfruits" (I Cor. 15:20& 23), and WE, not they, are also "firstfruits" (James 1:18 & Rev. 14:4). When will we believe the Scriptures? The FIRST to be called will be the LAST TO BE SAVED, and the LAST to be called will be the FIRST TO BE SAVED (Matt. 19:30 and 20:16).
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Any that are not of the Elect, none that died before Christ's resurrection were, do not have their name in the book of life (Jesus Christ). If they are not in the first resurrection then there is nothing else, but for them to go into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
But this is not necessarily a horrible fate. This is an excerpt from the article 'God judges the World In A Pond.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html -------------------------------------
WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?
Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."
And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).
A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection)… in a pond. A pond of divine, purifying SPIRIT.
This word limen has the word "fair" before it in Acts 27:8, in the King James Version—the "fair havens." Other translations render this verse as "safe harbor." (My father helped build Safe Harbor Dam in Pennsylvania).
Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.
SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THE DIVINE LAKE OF FIRE
Perhaps one reason that God describes this place of judgment as a "pond" or "lake" rather than a "harbor" is because a lake is landlocked, thus preventing a return to the perilous winds and waves of the deep sea from which these occupants have figuratively come:
"And the SEA gave up the dead [spiritually dead people] which were in it…"
v
v
GOD’S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE
I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.
Ponder this:
Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).
We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).
We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).
God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
God promises us that, "…the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD…" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!
God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!
The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).
And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.
"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"
And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
aqrinc:
Marques and Kat,
Thanks again, i keep reading The LOF series and it keeps giving. Then when i read your posts,
those give even more of the same; wow this is the greatest smorgasbord in the world. I get
to gorge myself day and night for one small fee (Love).
george. ;D
Richard D:
Hi Kat.
I read that excerpt you have given, God judges the world in a pond and understand why you said John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection. Kat, what can I say to you, I was wrong in what I said and you were right.
There is so much I don’t know and so much I need to learn and in the end I realize I’ll never know it all on this side of life.
I remembered a scripture I read about the first being last and the last being first, I guess this scripture applies here no doubt.
Kat, you are truly a wonderful sister in the Lord and a blessing not only on this forum but also in my life as well and I thank you for your patients with me.
I want you to know your words are not in vain towards me as I learned something new this day and although this is somewhat of a heavy blow to me I accept the truth in what you say. :)
Anyways Kat, the thing is I apologize to you personally for coming off kind of strong with you in my reply I directed towards you and find I not only learned something this day but also feel like a heel too. :-[
In God’s Love. Your brother in Christ. Richard.
Kat:
Hi Richard,
You have nothing to apologize for, I understood you just had not reached this in your understanding yet. There is must we all still have to learn. I have been studying Ray's material a wee bit longer than you and I remembered his teaching on this, so of course I wanted to help a brother and I have already noticed that you take to heart what someone explains to you. God has blessed me with time and the desire to help whereever I can at this forum, I am just too happy to do so.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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