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Dennis Vogel

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Hello
« on: March 19, 2006, 11:56:55 AM »

Dear pastor Kevin:

You have not even a clue as to what you are talking about. You are making it up as you go. I will make a few COMMENTS in your email............


Tithing means to give the tenth of your increase. Please read Heb 7:1-10. Abraham gave a tenth of the plunder to Melchizedek.

 
COMMENT:  Abraham did NOT tithe "a tent of his increase."  Abraham HAD NO INCREASE from these wars with the kings.  Abraham DENOUNCED ALL of these spoils of war. Please read Genesis 14.

 

 I am sure you'll find that "the plunder" did not only include animals and farm products.

 

COMMENT:  It matters not, as Abraham never took PERSONAL possession of any of it.

 

Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law, there was yet no Isreal, and no temple, and he gave the tenth of the plunder to a non-levitcal priest. Showing that a tenth of ones increase could be used as a role of thumb for giving in a non-levitcal situation.

 

COMMENT:  You totally falsefy the Scriptures. Abraham NEVER tithing ANYTHING of his own, either BEFORE or AFTER these wars with the kings.  There was no "rule of thumb:" you are making that up.



The fellowship must be maintained by the believers, which means some monetary support is necessary. If one is looking for a rule of thumb for that support a tenth of ones increase is a good gauge.


COMMENT:  Maintaining means for fellowship has nolthing to do with tithing.  I "maintain" a place for my wife and family to live and fellowship, but I guarantee you that I do not do it by TITHING.


Tithing is basically giving to the Church and Christian giving is scriptural, whether it's a tenth a fifth or a twentieth,

 
COMMENT:  Tithing basically has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Chruch or Christians.  "Giving" is not "tithing," so stop corrupting what the Scriptures say. Tithing is following a LAW of Moses which has nothing whatsoever to do with "voluntary" contributions.

 

 Christians are encouraged to give to the Church to support the fellowship. Luke 21:1-4, Heb 10:25.

 

COMMENT:  You are a "pastor" and you do not know that there was absolutely NOTHING "Christian" about the Temple at Jerusalem?  Jesus did not say: "I will build My church by extending the religious system of the Temple."  The Chruch of Jesus Christ has absolutel;y NOTHING to do with the Jew's Religion.  The widow was not contributing to Christ's Church for the purpose of providing a place for Christian to worship!  How can you corrupt the Scriptures this way, pastor?

And what, pray tell, does Christian believers assembling themselves together have to do with PAYING TEN PERCENT OF THEIR SALARIES TO SOME MINISTRY?  I am a Believer, and I assemble with other Believers all the time, yet not one of us pays ten percent of our salaries to some unscriptural institutionalized church or denomination of men. Where do you see "tithing" in any of these verses you reference?  You are MAKING IT UP, pastor.


L.Ray where do you fellowship?


COMMENT:  I fellowship where ever there are Believers of like mind to fellowship with--in my home, in their homes, in various cities, states, halls, etc.

It is unscriptural to teach Christians to tithe money, and it is a SIN to teach Christians to tithe a tenth of their annual salaries to other men.  And if not bitterly repented of, this sin will be severly judged in the Lake of Fire.

Ray



In Gods Glory,

Pastor Kevin





L.Ray,
       I like some of what you wrote about tithing, in Christ I too so no need to guilt trip people about tithing. At our Church we use tithing as a rule of thumb or a suggested guide to deciding how much to give. No one will be condemned for not tithing. However if you form a fellowship for the purpose of enriching one another in Christ, a failure to give regularly might be a heart condition problem. The whole point of giving is to support the fellowship--as the fellowship seeks and saves the lost. We are all commanded to Go, Make disciples, Baptize, and teach them to obey. It is VERY difficult for a full time working disciple to complete this commission without the use the Christian community.
 
     This is why the fellowship is important, to seek and save the lost and nurture each other and the weak. It is difficult to accomplish this without some kind of administrated christian community. All gifts where given to edify the Church, no fellowship, no edification. How can we gather without resources? Should we send out people empty handed? Yes we are all men of God, But some are called to plant some to water. This may not be accomplished by just ANY 2 disciples fellowshipping. As you bear fruit you will need to create a community for the fruit to last. Jesus set the example in this by choosing 12 as his first fruits. For you to serve as Jesus did on earth you will need a money bag, and yes, people are free to give what is on their heart
 
To God Be The Glory,
 
Pastor William ...
 


Dear William:

You don't know what "tithing" is. Christians don't tithe--it is impossible. Tithing was only for Israel, by the farmers and herders, to the poor and the priests of Levi, when there was a tabernacle and later a temple. Nother else is tithing. "Christian tithing," is a "Christian hoax."  You can call a cat, a dog. But that does not make a cat, a dog. Besides, even in ancient Israel, money was never a tithable commodity.  You are comparing apples and moon rocks. It's like introducing a new doctrine for Christians called "Christian animal sacrificing." It's just heresy. There is nothing.....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Scriptural about "Christian tithing."

Ray
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DocTN

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pastoral concerns of tithing
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2006, 12:11:26 PM »

Of all the material that Bro. L. Ray has expounded on. It seems to always come back to the MONEY.

This should be a testimony in and of itself. Sorry pastors, you can't serve two masters!
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SandyFla

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Re: Hello
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2006, 02:50:10 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Vogel

The whole point of giving is to support the fellowship--as the fellowship seeks and saves the lost. ... This is why the fellowship is important, to seek and save the lost ...


So it's the FELLOWSHIP that seeks and saves the lost, huh? I always thought someone named JESUS did that!!!

Sandy
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sunset_drama_king

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Re: Hello
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2006, 09:35:08 AM »

Quote from: SandyFla
Quote from: Dennis Vogel

The whole point of giving is to support the fellowship--as the fellowship seeks and saves the lost. ... This is why the fellowship is important, to seek and save the lost ...


So it's the FELLOWSHIP that seeks and saves the lost, huh? I always thought someone named JESUS did that!!!

Sandy


Believe it or not Sandy, Jesus does use our fellowship and His like-minded "chosen" for more reasons then having church luncheons or gathering once a week in a building to feel "special" & self-righteous.
 
Of course it's Jesus that's doing the saving when it comes down to it, but let's not limit His ways of accomplishing this, least of which is:

1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Oh yes, it shall.

- Brett
formally brett007 of the previous BT forums...GLAD TO BE BACK!
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hillsbororiver

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Hello
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2006, 12:01:13 PM »

Brett, great to see you back Brother!

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: pastoral concerns of tithing
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2006, 12:02:39 PM »

Quote from: DocTN
Of all the material that Bro. L. Ray has expounded on. It seems to always come back to the MONEY.

This should be a testimony in and of itself. Sorry pastors, you can't serve two masters!


Amen Doc! Yes, they certainly are touchy about this subject in particular.

Joe
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