Evil.

[Richard D]

Ray talks about our existence and our experiences in this life are for knowledge of Good and evil.

Rom 8:20  For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope

                        Below is an excerpt from the writings of Ray.

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

My understanding is without this experience of evil we would not have any comparison of that which is good. I understand I cannot be happy unless I really know what it's like to be sad or what good really is without experiencing what evil is.

To know what good and evil are is not going to make us into the image of God but it's in the experiencing of good and evil that is making us into God's image.

As I ponder these thoughts I'm wondering would one not need to experience every evil thing under heaven to have a full understanding?

For instance I know how devastating it is to discover something I owned was not where I put it when I went to get it, yes a human being somewhere in this world took something of mine that did not belong to him or her, and I forgive them for having done so also.

So God wants us to experience what its like, to feel the pain of it. But there are something's I'm thinking of I can never or won't ever experience in this life. So now my experiences would not be in the fullness of all evilness.

Ray has pointed out that Adam and Eve would have not been happy in the Garden of Eden because they had no comparison of the good things they had to any evil.

But this would have to include everything right? What I mean is Adam and Eve could be happy with their food supply if they knew what it was like to go hungry. But Adam and Eve could have not been happy with the beauty of the Garden of Eden if God had never sent them out of the Garden.

So my thoughts are as this, with out a full experience of evil I would not have a complete experience of evil meaning I would not be fully equipped to be made into the image of God. 

                                         In God's Love. Richard.

[Amrhrasach]

Richard, a good topic.  And, it was touched on briefly in my post of "whatever o man is".   (Or at least I was attempting to get there.)

Particularly, the following.

From "Repentance, 2005".

"O man, that's what we have to repent of.

Whatever O man is. That's what we are, because O man is Adam. O man came out of Adam. Where did you come from, some place else? We're all out of Adam. And what does Adam do? Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters and on and on. Wow, this is O man out of Adam. This is what he does.

And only by the grace of God, some of us didn't have to go that route."

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8475.0.html

"by the grace of God"..

So, to your question:  "As I ponder these thoughts I'm wondering would one not need to experience every evil thing under heaven to have a full understanding?"

Would it seem orderly that we DO in fact have that experience of "evil" in us already (in our heart), but, that God has "framed" us in such a way as to not actually need the "true" experience, the true *playing out* experience, and that only by his purpose and by his grace we are saved from such evil?  Should we not be thankful of knowing but not having to experience the harm?   All for his good, his plan and purpose?  Such a good thing it is perhaps that while we ALL have it in us, God's grace does indeed "frame" us from such sufferings to ourselves as well as at the expense of others? 

Best.
A.

[AK4]

Hi Richard

I have "experienced" some things in my dreams that i would, God willing, never do.  I also can "feel" what may be going through others minds as i see what they are going through or experiencing.  Or should i say if i was in their shoes i could relate how they reacted or not reacted.  I get this all the time. 

I dont think you have to personally experience something to know what is like.  I will use one the worst examples--Hitler--- if you read up on his childhood experiences you can probably see why he turned out to be what he was.

I dont know maybe its just me.  Hope this helps though

Anthony

[Richard D]

Amrhrasach.


We already know that Eve while in the Garden before the fall if you would already had lust of the eye and the pride of life right?

So if Eve already had these sins in her heart why would God place them outside the Garden of Eden?  It appears that just knowing about evil is not what God had intended for us. Or why not leave Adam and Eve in the Garden.

Let us reason it this way. God could have told Adam what it would be like to feel hunger pains and Adam would have only known it through intellectual knowledge and not through experiencing this pain first hand.

I can know about women having birth pains but I do not know through experience that pain she went through. It's my belief God wants us to know about evil through experiencing evil and not just being told about it.

So now I'm back to my original question.

As I ponder these thoughts I'm wondering would one not need to experience every evil thing under heaven to have a full understanding.


                                       In God's Love. Richard.

[Richard D]

Hi Anthony.

My reasoning is based on what God is putting us through in order of being made in His image, now having said that let me put this question to you. If I were with a women in a delivery room who is about to give birth and she said to me this hurts so much and I said to her I know the pain your feeling she would freak on me.

She would say no you don't know the pain I'm going through even though I might have had a broken bone in my body at one time. You see what I mean.

The pain of a broken bone may be different than the pain of giving birth in a different degree of pain.

I believe if all human being could become the sons and daughters of God without the experience of evil, what would that say about God putting us through something unnecessary?

So now I ask again would I not have to experience every evil under heaven in order to be fully equipped to be made into the image of God.

                                               In God's Love. Richard.

[mharrell08]

So now I ask again would I not have to experience every evil under heaven in order to be fully equipped to be made into the image of God.

Richard,

Where have you read that to be made into the image of God, one requires a 'full experience' of evil? Why would you think one requires an experience with every evil under the sun to be made into His image? Christ has taken on ALL the sins of the world...we are complete IN him. Why would you need to personally experience murder to know it is wrong? Theft? Fornication? Do we need to be infected with HIV or cancer to know they are evil? Evil is evil...the same way one is guilty of all for one transgression [James 2:10], the same way one experience of evil is to be acquainted with them all.


Marques

[aqrinc]

Richard,

Think on this, The Garden of Eden Symbolizes God's Presence. Adam and Eve in having sinned had to be cast
out (separation from God) or they would be destroyed (the flesh in sin cannot survive uncovered in God's Presence).
That may just be the very first act of dying from sin (separation from God).

I may be presuming a lot but this is what i see partly right now.

GOD Only In Jesus Christ Saves,

george.

[Richard D]

Hello Marques.


I have not read that we need to experience every evil under heaven anywhere. However my thoughts are, if we are being made in the image of God through this knowledge of good and evil would not a full experience of evil be needed?

Ray put it this way, Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God.

Now you used this analogy do we need to be infected with HIV or cancer to know they are evil?

I would answer you no, one does not need to be infected with HIV or cancer to know they are evil?

But I ask you, could of not Adam and Eve just partaken of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but not actually experience evil and gone on to being made into the image of God?

But if this knowledge of good and evil is essential for being made into the image of God then how much evil and what sort of evil does one need to experience, in being made into the image of God?


                                In God's Love. Richard.

[Richard D]

Hello George.

We must remember  Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity. Adam and Eve were not sinners by choice but were made weak for a reason.

Without experiencing evil, we could never become in God's image. 

[Ninny]

Richard here are my thoughts on this:
We don't have to personally experience every evil, we have been in the presence of every evil just by living in this world. We hear about it on the news, we see it on the streets.
You can not live in this world without being acquainted with evil. It affects us in different ways, but I don't think our being made into the image of God means we have to personally experience every type of evil. We do know though that it doesn't matter what our sins are we are ALL born with a sinful nature our carnal minds  are evil we are enemies of  God until we are converted.  This is God's plan for us! These are just my thoughts on the matter!
My trains of thought don't always carry a lot of freight!! 
Peace in His love,
Kathy

[aqrinc]

Richard,

Yes to Romans 8:20; i was addressing the highlighted part of your answer to Amrhrasach.
Type and shadow Sin in heart or Act of Sinning.

george.

Amrhrasach.

We already know that Eve while in the Garden before the fall if you would already had lust of the eye and the pride of life right?

So if Eve already had these sins in her heart why would God place them outside the Garden of Eden?  It appears that just knowing about evil is not what God had intended for us. Or why not leave Adam and Eve in the Garden.

Let us reason it this way. God could have told Adam what it would be like to feel hunger pains and Adam would have only known it through intellectual knowledge and not through experiencing this pain first hand.

I can know about women having birth pains but I do not know through experience that pain she went through. It's my belief God wants us to know about evil through experiencing evil and not just being told about it.

So now I'm back to my original question.

As I ponder these thoughts I'm wondering would one not need to experience every evil thing under heaven to have a full understanding.


                                       In God's Love. Richard.

[Richard D]

Hello Kathy.

You made a great point which I did not contemplate, you said (You can not live in this world without being acquainted with evil. It affects us in different ways,)

Maybe that's the answer, You know, when I hear about a child being physically abused on the news it bothers me or someone being murdered or a Connor store being robed it does effect me.

Kathy, I think you hit the nail on the head, what you said makes perfect sense to me.

                                     In God's Love. Richard.

[Kat]

Hi Richard,

I do not feel we have to experience 'every' kind of pain to understand what pain is.  You might not understand the pain of actual childbirth, but I'm sure you have felt pain and can relate in general to what pain is.

Now I do believe that we have to experience evil, I think that is part of learning good and evil in this life.  But I don't believe we have to experience 'every' evil to relatively understand it.  I know what evil is by my own actions and I don't need to experience every evil to know what the beast in me is capable of.   I know if not by the grace of God I could become the most evil person in the world, all it would take is the right circumstances and causes.

Just another perspective.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[aqrinc]

Kat, i agree with one caveat;

You wrote:

I know if not by the grace of God I could become the most evil person in the world, all it would take is the
right circumstances and causes.

My capacity for evil is infinitely greater than most; why i always say (there but for The Grace Of God, go I)

george.

[Amrhrasach]

Hello Richard.

This past weekend I was reading LOF part 15 and last night I remembered reading this section.  It may be of some worth on this topic. 

THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED EVIL

This is all the strange work of God. There is no free will about it. We are all born out of a dark womb into the natural light of day, but this too is but a parable. We must be "born again" out of spiritual darkness of this age into the glorious light of the Sun of God. It is a painful journey, and requires an experience of evil to accomplish.

"And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail has God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith"  (Ecclesiastes 1:13).

What a horrible translation! My King James has three superior numbers in this one verse indicating three different words in the margin. Especially the last phrase:

"...this sore travail has God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith."

What pray tell does that mean? One of the most all-encompassing and profound verses in all Scripture, and most translations butcher it beyond understanding.

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE: "A thankless task God has appointed for men to be busied about."

JEWISH PUBLICATION SOCIETY: "...it is a sore task that God has given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith."

NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION:   "What a heavy burden God has laid on men!"

YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION: "It is a sad travail God has given to the son of man to be humbled by it."

This is really an important verse; we have got to get it right. Young's Translation gets a little closer to the truth than the KJV or the previous three references. He got the humbled part right. But what is all this "sad travail," "heavy burden," "thankless task," business all about? It is not that difficult if we will just look at the Hebrew words:

Ecc. 1:13 from the King James:
First, the word "this" may be better translated "it," as some have done.

But far, far more important than all, the word "sore" should be translated "EVIL" as almost none have done. It is the Hebrew word ra which always means "EVIL," and is translated as "evil" in hundreds and hundreds of other verses. Why not in this verse? The few times that ra is translated "sore" in the KJV, it ALWAYS means "evil" as in "evil sickness" or "evil troubles."

The word "travail" in the KJV is not out of line with the Hebrew, but is nebulous and not easily understood by most. It would better translated as "employment" or "experience."

And we have already seen from other versions that the KJV "exercised" is better translated "humbled" as Young's and Concordant has done.

Here then is a proper translation of this most profound verse:

"It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (Concorant Old Testament).

Now we can easily understand what is being said in this verse.

This "experience of evil" is not the purpose or goal of human existence, but this is indeed the process by which God is bringing His Sons and Daughters into glory! Most translations have hidden the meaning of this verse of Scripture. The translations just couldn't believe that God would do such a thing. They see it all around them. They see it in thousands of Scriptures, but they just couldn't bring themselves to come right out and say it, as God obviously has stated in the original Hebrew of this verse.

"It is an EXPERIENCE of EVIL that God has given to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE them by it."
And to this agrees the rest of Scripture:

"For ALL his days are SORROWS, and his travail [experience] GRIEF..."  (Ecc. 2:23).

The destiny of the human race is indeed GLORIOUS, but the journey is filled with evil and sorrow. This not to say that there are not many beautiful and good things in life, but for most the misery far far outweighs the pleasurable.

Do not be deceived: when Jesus said—"...I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10), He was surely not speaking about this life, now, in the flesh! Contrary to the evil teachings of prosperity ministers, Jesus never promised us LARGER HOMES AND GREATER MATERIAL POSSESSIONS after we start following in His steps.

*>*>*>

Most importantly in this part of the article which is in-line with your question is this part:  "This "experience of evil" is not the purpose or goal of human existence, but this is indeed the process by which God is bringing His Sons and Daughters into glory! .."

Hope this adds some worthy dimensions to the understandings.


Read it all here:  http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

A.

[Richard D]

A.

Thank you, I remember these writings of Ray's and remembered it's about being made humble. No matter which way I see it I cannot get away from the fact that it's all about God and the beast in us.

Being made humble by seeing what we really are and learning to deny self, a most painful process of back and forth until we get it and become more Christ like.


                                            In God's Love. Richard.

[aqrinc]

Hi Amrhrasach,

Thank you for the clarification, this is so true. We have little successes and start thinking we are going
places, then get puffed up and self satisfied. At such times all our lessons learned are pushed aside, God
then brings trials or just removes the blessing to show us our nakedness and need for Him. That is one of
the processes of Chastening and Scourging to bring us to the place where He Has Purposed for us.

Romans 8:29:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might
be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30:
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and
whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good
pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who
works all things after the counsel of his own will:

george.

Hello Richard.

This past weekend I was reading LOF part 15 and last night I remembered reading this section.  It may be of some worth on this topic. 

THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED EVIL

This is all the strange work of God. There is no free will about it. We are all born out of a dark womb into the natural light of day, but this too is but a parable. We must be “born again” out of spiritual darkness of this age into the glorious light of the Sun of God. It is a painful journey, and requires an experience of evil to accomplish.

It is an EXPERIENCE of EVIL that God has given to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE them by it.”
And to this agrees the rest of Scripture:

“For ALL his days are SORROWS, and his travail [experience] GRIEF…”  (Ecc. 2:23).

The destiny of the human race is indeed GLORIOUS, but the journey is filled with evil and sorrow. This not to say that there are not many beautiful and good things in life, but for most the misery far far outweighs the pleasurable.

Do not be deceived: when Jesus said—“…I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly” (John 10:10), He was surely not speaking about this life, now, in the flesh! Contrary to the evil teachings of prosperity ministers, Jesus never promised us LARGER HOMES AND GREATER MATERIAL POSSESSIONS after we start following in His steps.

*>*>*>

Most importantly in this part of the article which is in-line with your question is this part:  “This “experience of evil” is not the purpose or goal of human existence, but this is indeed the process by which God is bringing His Sons and Daughters into glory! ..”

Hope this adds some worthy dimensions to the understandings.


Read it all here:  http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

A.

[judith collier]

I disagree that we do not have life more abundantly NOW! Now I am fulfilled, now I understand, now I do not fear, now I know my purpose, now I know my God, now I have been called, now I am saved, now I know I will rise again. Abundance doesn't always mean the physical. Judy

[Beloved]

Judy please do not take offence but I was just telling one of the modertors that in reading one of my old posts I caught were I had said this phrase and corrected it. 

We are not SAVED.... remember it is a process. So whatever we have now ........there willl be more.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

beloved

[judith collier]

Beloved, yes, I do know it is a process. I stated it wrong but how in the world could anyone say that Christ does not bring more ( and I should have said, SPIRITUAL ABUNDANCE) MY spiritual happiness with the Lord is what keeps me happy and content. I wasn't like that before. Judy