End Times

[Ricco]

Good Day all my blessed brothers and sisters the chosen ones,

I am confused about the end times, how is it going to come about?
When will the first resurrection be? When is the day of the Lord?
When is the millenial reign, and consequently the second ressurection?
When is satan going to be bound?
Can anyone map it out for me, there is so much controversy about it
please with scripture.
Thanks in advance for your loving care

God bless you all

[Dave in Tenn]

Hi Ricco.  To be honest, I think you are looking in the wrong place to find some kind of a flow-chart guide to literal prophecy.  Read the LOF series and you'll see that prophecy is spiritual.  We are in the end times, and man has been in the end-times at least since the words came out of the mouth of Christ.  Everything that has been said in Scripture is for our edification, benefit, reproof, correction.  We can't look at bible history without understanding this...how much less can we look at prophecy without understanding it?

I'm without e-sword right now, but I'll try to paraphrase what Jesus said when He was asked questions similar to yours.  "I don't know...only the Father knows the day and hour."  What a powerful statement that is coming from the One who knows the hearts of men.

Speculation on end-times 'theory' from scattered mentions in the NT and literal  (carnal) understanding of prophetic books is the stock in trade of the churches.  As with everything, they cannot even agree among themselves.  They stand no chance of explaining any of it until they can see the meaning beyond the 'signs'.  Once we understand that who the Letters to the Seven Churches in Asia, as an example, are actually adressed to, we might begin to understand the 'end-times'.

Anyway, Ray has not presented an 'eschatology' that answers your questions neatly and literally.  I personally wouldn't trust anybody who did.  Instead, he has poured out mountains of spirtually edifying work mostly in the Lake of Fire series.  There's some real meat there that you'd only get to nibble in a forum.

Hang in there. 

[Kat]

Hi Ricco,

We can all speculate on this things, like so many have done to the pass to their on folly.  We need only be concerned with our daily walk with God and all things will fall into place as He sees fit.
Here is the passage that Dave was referring to.

Mark 13:32  "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
v. 33  Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
v. 34  It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
v. 35  Watch therefore--for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning--
v. 36  lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
v. 37  And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Martinez]

I've been doing a bit of thinking lately about the whole thief in the night thing.

Lot's and lot's of people have asked the question what does Jesus mean by "a thief in the night"?

I think maybe the thieves the bible talks about is actually those in the mainstream christian church and when He says that He shall return as a thief in night, I think He means He return as those sons of God that the creation has been waiting for among those who call themselves Jew's but are not.

They will look just like the tares until harvest time except they will be God's chosen elect!

The night aspect is referring to the spiritual state of the orthodox christian church I think.

One of the verses that gives me this idea is that anyone who denies that Christ has come in the flesh is an Antichrist.

That's just what I have been getting out of those verses lately.

[Ricco]

Thank you brethren for your input God bless you all

[David]

I agree with what the other posters have said, 1 its spiritual, 2 only God knows when.
With regard to any physical manifestation of the end times, its always intrigued me how the Church always teaches their end time nonsense in humanistic terms. If you listen to typical end time prophesy type teaching, its always the human race that will bring it about and force Gods hand, some such as Hagee even pray to bring about WW3 so that  Christ has no choice but to return.
The two most well known stories of Judgment in the OT are Noahs flood, and Soddom and Gamorah. And in both stories God used natural forces that only He controls, that man has no control over whatsoever. The same when He judged Egypt before the Israelites Exodus. I think this is significant. When God chooses the time to end the world, to destroy all flesh, I believe He will not be relying on mere men to bring it about.   

[dogcombat]

Hi all,

To understand "thief in the night",  let's take a closer look at 1 Thes. 5:2

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

In light of what Kat posted from Mark 13, we see that "thief in the night" is a FIGURATIVE application.  Or a metaphor so to speak.  But, we read on in 2 Thes. 2 and find the following:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Since God is the ONLY one who knows when Christ will return,  we are only to watch and wait.  Until then, there is much to endure until that time comes.  The phrase "for that day shall not come is written in italics by the translators.  Ray has expounded on this "Falling Away" in the "Who Is The Beast" paper.

               
                         THERE MUST COME A 'FALLING AWAY' FIRST

I have shown you that John, Paul, Peter, ALL of the apostles, the whole church in Asia, the Seven Churches of Revelation, the entire flock of God's called, all built their houses upon spiritual sand—in other words EVERYONE ever called by God, falls, falls down, falls away.

The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times..." That's a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God's plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "...and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for

"Who are you that judges another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).

We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:

"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!

When John's spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.

He finishes the paper with the answer to WHO the Beast IS.  You can read it here

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

Hope this helps,
Ches

[Martinez]

Hi dogcombat!

I don't think that thief in the night is just an expression here, our Lord has no idle words in His mouth.

Thief has a very significant meaning anywhere it is used, and remember that Christ was crucified between two thieves!

Thief here is a spiritual thing and it's something that Christ is not guilty of.

The question is spiritually, what is a thief?

[dogcombat]

I think I should have clarified the FIGURATIVE application.  Since God is the ONLY one who knows when Jesus will return.  That will happen as "Thief In the Night".  Meaning, He will return when we're not expecting it.  The elect, who are living and endured the tribulation, won't be caught off guard, because they are being prepared for His glorious arrival.  Those who fell away, will be caught off guard.  Hope that helps

Ches

[Beloved]

Jesus referring to Himself as a thief is certainly a Scriptural stumbling block for some. But there is no doubt that Jesus warned us all to stay awake and watch numerous times.

(Rev 3:3)  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

He is telling us to remember how we Lambango (turned a 180 degrees and take in and hold what God revealed), and we are told to Tereo (this word was a major bone of contention in the past as older members may remember ...unlike what they said it does not mean DO ....it means guard keep your eyes on) and He says to repent (be humble and acknowledge our transgressions) 

But we know that this is all God's doing, He is the one who revealed Himself to us, we were blind. He is the one giving us the fortitude to watch and study. he is the one who is taking us through tribulations showing us the defects that are in our hearts and shows us the need to repent.

I am so glad to be out of Babylon and their preoccupation with end time theories. I am so sick of their  trying to outguess the Father by trying to predict the time of Jesus return. They just cannot accept what Jesus said himself. 

beloved

[Beloved]

I opened my previous post with

Jesus referring to Himself as a thief is certainly a Scriptural stumbling block for some.

It was pointed out to me by Rodger and I want to clarify my statement better. It was poor writing and I need to sharpen my pencil. We do need to try to be clear when we expouse things.   

Jesus has no sin and can never be miscontrued as a thief.

As the Lord King and Master of this world .....when He returns
         so there are absoluely no grounds for falacious entrance, .

Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

beloved

[CEO]

Rodger

Excellent.

Charles O

[Falconn003]

Rodger

Excellent.

Charles O

All thanks and Glory be to and for God, with out His blessing i am NOTHING, and be the 1st in line to say so.

Peace CEO

Rodger

PS i also thank him for this flat tire , that gets me out of this horrific traffic this shopping day after Thanks giving fiasco, went to the corner store for paper and it is UGLY, but needed.

[Falconn003]

I opened my previous post with

Jesus referring to Himself as a thief is certainly a Scriptural stumbling block for some.

It was pointed out to me by Rodger and I want to clarify my statement better. It was poor writing and I need to sharpen my pencil. We do need to try to be clear when we expouse things.   

Jesus has no sin and can never be miscontrued as a thief.

As the Lord King and Master of this world .....when He returns
         so there are absoluely no grounds for falacious entrance, .

Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

beloved

I take no credit for myself , as we are of like minds, we are all one with God's Spirit.

Rodger

[hillsbororiver]

I am not so sure that the Day of the Lord is the calling of His people on whatever day He happens to call each individual person, in the Book of Joel 2 we have a very descriptive telling of the Day of the Lord which appears to be when the Lord and His chosen set about to purge the world and bring it to righteousness.

Also if you read the entire chapter of 1Thessalonians it appears to be speaking to those who are already believers in Christ. Let's take the following as an example;

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

In Joel we see that this Day (yom) is the same word used in Genesis through the creation process, we know that this is not a 24 hour "day" or one individual day but an age. So we could call this future event the Age of the Lord "when thy judgments are in the earth." Isaiah 26:16

Joel 2

1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

12Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

13And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

14Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

21Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

22Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

It appears that the chosen saints are empowered in this "age" no longer the weak, the despised and powerless.

Peace,

Joe

[Falconn003]

It may very well be that, ENTERING the Sabbath and the Day of the Lord are one and the same ...... not to leave anything to speculation ..... i leave Ray to write an article on it.

til then

Rodger

[Ricky]

Hello, I have always believed, at least to me, that, comes like a thief in the night, means, and this is just for me to believe, since the Lord gave everyone life, He can also take it. at any time because you do not know the day or hour, would be just like a thief in the night. If you or me were to die of a heart attack right now, we would immediately wake up standing before the Lord sometime in the future, and to me that would be the day of the Lord. Can anyone here see this being possibly.
             Bless you all       Ricky

[jeetkunejimi]

A theif as I understand it is someone that takes away the things that we all would hold precious, material posessions, money, carnal averice,while you are sleeping. A thief doesn't usually want your toaster or your kettle, he want's the things that are of most value, gold,silver,diamonds. Spiritually speaking I believe this can be reprisentative of the things we still hold in our hearts and minds that are Anti-Christ as no one has overcome yet or is without sin.

So when Christ comes in the night to take what a theif would take, be not afraid, as what Christ comes to steal, his Father, our Father gave us in the first place(Isaiah 45:7), and needs to be stolen away from us, it needs to be taken by the only one who can touch it with out being tainted by it. And we need to let it go, just like the rich young ruler needed to.

I feel we need to be more ready and humble to let the things Christ wants to take from us(carnality & false indoctrinations) as he seperates the wheat from the chaff within each of us and the goats from the sheep within each of us until there is only the good left as we see in Christ are immortal elder brother.Amen.

Hope there's something of use for your spirit in what I've said my from my spirit, so the Holy Spirit of God can teach us both further.

[Ricky]

What I was leading at is, this verse could mean to be spiritually ready for His return, and not be sleeping. I was not taught this by any church or anyone, this is coming from me as to the way I see certain verses. What happen s at night, you sleep, sleep in the bible means death. If you can see this the way I see it you would understand what I mean.
      Ricky

[Deborah-Leigh]

Some points to ponder from:

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

"... the day of the Lord is as a thief in the night ... you brethren, are not in darkness, that the day [of the Lord] may be overtaking you as a thief"
Why complicate something so simple?............... Why does this day not overtake the Thessalonians as a thief? Does this Scripture tell us that the reason it doesn't overtake them is because it doesn't even come as a thief in the first place? Where do these Scriptures say or even suggest such a thing?
This Scripture plainly tells us why this day doesn't overtaken the Thessalonians as a thief. The reason this day (which does come as a thief--verse 4), but does not overtake them as a thief, is because, "... you brethren are not in DARKNESS ..."
However, if the Thessalonians were in darkness, then the day of verse 4 would overtake them as a thief! It could not overtake them or anyone else if it didn't come as a thief in the first place! There it is. It is not whether or not the Thessalonians are in darkness or not that determines whether the day comes as a thief or not. No, it does come as a thief.. The point Paul is making is that it does not overtake them as a thief, and the reason it doesn't is plainly given: "... you brethren, are NOT in darkness ..." 
Whether the Thessalonians are in darkness or not in darkness is not the determining factor as to whether or not the second mention of the day in verse 4, comes as a thief or does not come as a thief. The element of "a thief" is already clearly stated in both verses. Let's read them:
"... the day of the Lord is as a thief ..." (I Thes. 5:2).
"... that the day may be overtaking you as a thief ..." (I Thes. 5:4).

PROOF FOR WHEN THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME
Let us be clear, that the "day of the Lord" is the time period of Christ's return to this earth to punish Babylon the Great and to pour out His righteous indignation on her (and on those nations who follow and worship her) for her evil crimes of inhumanity and blasphemy. Here is the order of events (Mat. 24:29-30). It's as simple as one, two, three:
1.   "Immediately AFTER the affliction [great affliction, or great tribulation--ver. 29], of those days ...
2.   "... the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken ...
3.   "And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory."
The "day of the Lord," the day that the Lord comes, clearly is "after" the great affliction, and "after" the heavenly signs. The book of Joel gives us a second confirmation:
"Alas! Alas! Alas for the day! For near is the DAY OF THE LORD.
And as devastation from Him Who-Suffices is it coming" (Joel 1:15).
"For coming is the DAY OF THE LORD! A day of darkness and gloominess. A day of clouds and murkiness" (Joel 2:2).
"The heavens quake, The sun and the moon are somber, and the stars gather in their brightness ... before His army [Rev. 19:11] (Joel 2:10) ...
"And He will spare His people" (2:18).
"And I will give MIRACLES IN THE HEAVENS above, And signs on the earth, Blood and fire and pillars of smoke, The sun shall be turned to darkness, And the moon to blood (2:30-31), BEFORE the coming of the DAY OF THE LORD, the great and fearful day" (2:30-31).
So we have this event neatly book-ended with references to the "great affliction" and the "heavenly signs." Matt. 24:29 clearly tells us that "immediately AFTER" the great affliction or tribulation of those days, the signs in the sun, moon and stars occur, followed by the return of Christ--the day of the Lord. And Joel 2:31 clearly tells us that the signs in the heavens occur "BEFORE" the coming of the day of the Lord. As to the chronology of these grand events, there can be no honest dispute--the day of the Lord does not include the great tribulation, but comes after the great tribulation, and after the heavenly signs.
We have already shown in Scripture that the great tribulation ends at our Lord's advent, it does not begin. Nor is the tribulation ushered in, as a thief, three and one half years earlier or seven years earlier. It is our Lord's "coming" that is as a thief, not "tribulation." "Gloominess" and "darkness" during the time of the day of the Lord is not the main aspect of the figure of a thief or even a minor aspect of this figure of a thief. The Bible tells us plainly what the figure represents. It is representative of "when He comes" -- "His coming"! Nothing else.
"Darkness and gloom" is not being compared with "a thief in the night," at all. The world is in darkness and gloom, but the actual "coming" of our Lord is in no way analogous to "gloom and darkness." How can anyone even suggest that the Lord's coming as a thief is comparable to night, darkness, or gloom, when the Scriptures plainly tell us that,
"... even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the PRESENCE of the Son of Mankind" (Matt. 24:27).
Nothing is as bright as lightning--not even the sun. No one will know when our Lord comes, but when He appears, everyone on earth will know!
"... then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much GLORY"! (Mat. 24:30).
"Power," "Glory," and "LIGHTNING" have no fellowship with "darkness," "evil" and "gloom"!
Furthermore, the fact that Christ is coming "as" "a thief in the night" has absolutely nothing to do with either an actual thief or actual night time. And, likewise, it has nothing to do with negativism. This is figurative language. This is not to be taken literally. Let us be clear, that Jesus Christ is not coming as a thief, to steal! And He is not coming at night so that no one can see Him coming (the aspect of His coming as "lightning" should dispel any such idea). ......

"For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom there is NO Jew NOR yet Greek, there is NO slave NOR yet free, there is NO male and female, for you ALL ARE ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment [singular--not two different allotments] according to the promise [singular]" (Rom. 3:27-29)! This includes Peter and Paul, Jews and Gentles, and ALL THOSE WHO LOVE HIS APPEARING!